Sunday To Sunday Attentive Heart

Welcome to the Attentive Heart Podcast where we explore how an integration of mind, body, and spirit makes us whole and enables us to become more compassionate to ourselves and to others. I'm your host, John Gribowich, and today my guest is David.

 I wanna kind of understand a little bit about how you got to this point of being just so cognizant of knowing what works within your soul, so to speak, that allows a certain type of harmony to exist and what you do to kind of cultivate that harmony. Because I think this goes right to the heart of what I would like to kind of maybe unpack with you is just like your journey through this.

I mean, you mentioned before about how when you were learning the artistic process, that was actually a way for you to learn the vocational process as well about who you are, what you felt called to do, what you feel that will bring you true joy. And also would push you to sacrifice the most in order to achieve it too.

So maybe if you, if you want to kind of like walk us through that, like, when did that really begin? Because I know that from your book it happened pretty early in life and there's been a lot of twists and turns, but there's an awareness that this has to be addressed. Like you're just not gonna be really fully human if you don't address this need to truly be the artist that you're meant to be because that is your vocation.

Yes. The story underneath this is that when I was in my mid-twenties, I was extremely unhappy. I was living in London. And I was introduced to somebody who mentored people and he was just, he just, you know, offered his time and I saw the effect that he had on these people who introduced me, and I saw that it was good. But he had some effectively what were a set of spiritual exercises.

The way he piqued my interest, he said, “If you inherited so much money that you never had to work again, what would you actually choose to do? Nine to five, five days a week. Forget about having to do it's not even what job you would do. What activity would you do?” Sure. And I said, “I think, I think paint.”

He said, “Well, that's what you're meant to do.” So he said, “Okay. I can show you how to reach for that. You know, are you happy to take direction?” And I was, I trusted him. And what he did was gave me a set of spiritual exercises, which are included in this, you know, I described them in this book The Vision for You, which you referred to.

But it began right at the beginning with a daily routine. Now remember I was a cynical atheist at this time, you know, I just thought people who had faith were just stupid, basically diluted. And I took, you know, and anyone, anyone was happy because they had faith, they were even more stupid.

You know, they just didn't understand life, you know, like I did. Sure. And so he didn't sell me at all on that this would be a way to faith or anything like that. He just said, this gives, you know, this worked for me, this will give you a chance to be an artist. But he asked me to, effectively, he offered me a sort of Pascal's wager and said, “Just imagine that there is a God. Act as though he exists and see what happens”. And so I, that day I started, I got on my knees, is what he told me, asked God to look after me that day. He says, you don't have to believe God exists, but there's enough willingness just to take the action.

Just see how you feel. And he said, write a gratitude list. This was a bit of meditation. Write the things that are good in your life. I didn't think any, you know, I wasn't grateful for anything. He had to write that list out for me. Things like food and I've got a bed, you know, a roof over my head, clothes to wear.

He pointed out to me, I'm ahead of, you know, a significant proportion of the world's population who don't know where the next meal is coming from, you know? Sure. He said to me, “I don't wanna hear you complaining again. You've got what you need today”. But he had a twinkle in his eyes and had a way of making you laugh at yourself, you know, as he did this.

But through these exercises, he effectively introduced me to a way of looking at the world around me, appreciating what is good and looking out to the world rather than constantly looking in at myself and thinking, “What's wrong with me and how can I do this?” He also insisted that I get involved with Service, and with others.

He made me volunteer for something that had nothing to do with art or my mission or anything. It is just sacrificing time for others on a habitual basis. And he said this is about love and opening yourself up to love. And if you take actions of love for people you don't know, then in many ways you could argue that it's you know, it's, it's more powerful than loving those you do, shall we say.

Because if it's my wife or my mother or father, it still comes back to me because they're my relatives. Now I should, that's not saying I shouldn't be loving them, but what he said is if you give to people who are in no position to return to you, that will be a transforming principle.

It's going to train you as a lover and that love and grace, if you like, will start to apply in every aspect of your life. So what did you do? What did you do? What was your way of service? Well, I volunteered for people who had alcohol and drug problems. And why did you pick that?

Because of, you know, family connections. And then also he suggested it. So, because I mean I know that so, so many times I hear a lot of people who want to do some form of service to just to kind of get out of themselves. And sometimes it can be like a little overwhelming because I think in our world today, there are so many needs. You would think that, okay, well it's easy to find something to do, but it seems to be the opposite that people just get paralyzed. So thinking, well, there's nothing I can do because the problems are too big. Yeah. And to just try to be like, well, just think of one thing that you maybe feel as if you can somehow walk with another person wherever they are in their journey, let's just say.

I mean, and, and if you can just kind of hone in on that It seems like these little things are just like them, the things you gotta really start to begin with because we just live in a world where everything is just so big and if you, and you, we just feel so little and rightfully so, because we are kind of small in the whole cosmos.

But we're so close to just the person who's next to us who in some way is going through something that we can at least accompany them with. And well, you put your finger on it. This is the thing that he stressed to me. He said it must involve personal connection, personal contact.

And not that I was in a position to do this, but you know, doing good, it wouldn't have counted if I'd been dispersing money from the Bill Gates fortune or something. It's actually dealing with people. And it's as if he would, you know, the way he put it to me, he said, if you go to this group and then you are, you just say, “Hello, you know, how are you? Nice to see you.” That kind word might be enough to encourage them to come back a second time. You can save a life through a simple act of love, but you'll never know it very often, you just won't know. Yeah, I really believe that. I think it's so, it's just these intentional small actions that can go miles and miles and you won't know it at all, but that's okay. Yeah. Right.

Okay, so what happened next? I mean, and by the way, like this whole idea of getting on your knees and praying to something you don't believe in. I mean, why did you do it? Because I'm sure there are people who are listening to this who, you know, don't believe in God, are thinking like why would I do that? Yeah. So he told me that he did ask me if I was at least willing to believe in some sort of, he used the phrase ‘power greater than myself’, which, you know, this is a familiar phrase nowadays. In higher power or something like that.

But he just asked me if I was willing to believe in this because he said, “Look, you don't want me helping you. You need something that's outside of you and greater than you”. And I'm telling you that when you look at your friends who you've seen change, and you look at me that what we have has come from doing this.

So just you know, are you willing to believe that this might work for you too? And what he said was, if you're just, you don't have to have any greater conviction than to give it a try. You don't have to do it publicly, you don't have to acknowledge anybody. You don't have to come to the front and bear witness and, you know, tell everybody you've done it.

Just in the privacy of, you know, of your own home humble yourself before what possibly might exist. And what he did do, he had a funny way of putting it, he said, “Try this for 30 days, and if you don't like it, we'll return your misery with interest”. This guy was a character.

Let's give it a shot and see. Right, so I mean, well, I guess that says a lot, right? I mean, you clearly feel as if you weren't really living your best life or you weren't fully happy. So I guess you had nothing to lose, right? In trying this, right? I mean, was that where you felt where things were?

Yes. I mean, I think there are a lot of people who today, I think feel as if they are living their best life or they feel as if there's nothing more I can really strive for because I have everything. I mean, I think there are some people like that. So is it possible to ever be content thinking that like, “Hey, I've, I've maxed out? I don't need anything more, so why should I try to discern even more about what I could be doing with my life?” Is there ever a point that you think like, oh, you know, this is it. There's nothing more I want, or need, or.

I can only point to my own experience. Like everyone, I tend to assume everybody's like me, which may not be the case, but all I would say is I don't, there's a queen song.

This is a, for them, they're the youngsters. This is a rock band from the, but the main chorus is “I want it all. I want it all. And I want it now.” Oh, I know. It's a great song. It was a great song. I love it. That's kind of how I am. I mean, it doesn't matter how good things are going.

I always want, you know, double it and triple and you know, and the, and this is part of my despair actually. In many ways I was privileged. I was, but I still found plenty of things that I couldn't get. I knew that I, you know, had opportunity at the very least, beyond what most people could dream of.

I knew that at 26. And it just didn't seem to mean anything to me. And what I would say, though, is that if somebody's happy, and they really are utterly content, I mean, the only way I can imagine that is in full union with God. I always think there's a little bit of dissatisfaction, but if somebody really is happy then they're probably not gonna want to do this because they don't need it.

But I wonder how many people are like that. And certainly, it's not, it isn't dependent upon having everything you want materially. And that's one thing I know for sure. I mean, I think that it's, there may be a lot of people saying, you know, “I'm content. I'm happy. I don't need anything else.” And I think underneath that may actually be almost like another voice that's saying, you know, “I don't want to be disappointed if I go further along and try to strive for something or try to get something and then I don't get it.”

So, therefore, why should I run the risk of putting myself out there? There's this big thing right now with Gen Z that values safety as one of the highest virtues, which is in a certain sense, the complete antithesis of creativity. It is like, you know, it's better to be safe than to run the risk of trying something and failing or trying to do something and being let down or embarrassing yourself or anything like that.

I think there's something like that happening right now. So rather than do that, you just kind of say, I have everything I need. I'm content. I don't think I need anything else. And that's kind of like a safe position. Yeah. So I mean, well, what I, I don't know if you know if you've seen that or, or like in, in your walk with people or, or how would you even go about like trying to give someone the motivation to know that “Hey, even if you fail, that's actually progress or that's actually something that's gonna make you more alive and more human and you are ultimately going to be more, more joyful through that process.”

I mean, like how has that worked with you? Like as far as you going out, kind of going outside your comfort zone or trying to explore things and then failing? I mean, what has that really meant? Well, dealing with others, let's say if somebody really is saying they're happy and they're not acknowledging any dissatisfaction, they're not prepared to acknowledge that at any level. I don't think there's a conversation really, you know, either it's true, in which case they don't need it, or more likely they're just, the pride is such, they're not prepared to admit it, and I'm not going to. You need that sort of opening where people, someone is acknowledging at some level they're dissatisfied in some way.

They may say, I'm not prepared to take the risk, but I am okay. But I know it could be better, but I'm not prepared. Then you've got something to work with. What I would say is that what I didn't actually describe is the process by which I strived for this dream. I had this dream. David actually told me what to do.

The thing to do is take one small step at a time. You just take the first step. You don't think about it. You don't plan the whole route. You just take one step. And then after you've done that, you just look for the next opening and it's just something that moves you in that direction. So the first step for me was signing on at the local art school, which I'd been too cynical to do.

I'd wanted to be an artist all my life. I've never bothered to do an art class cause I just assumed it wasn't worthwhile. So it got me to take that first step because my reaction was I have to do 80 years of art classics. I, you know, I've already got a degree. I can't afford to go back to art school full-time.

He said, it doesn't work like that, you know, you'll meet somebody. But before he suggested I did that, he established, through Pascal's wager, and then once that was done, further spiritual through exercises, actually a relationship with God. And he did that because once I had that, that fear was dissipated enough that it, the answer that is that, that what displaces fear is faith.

And once you have that, it can just be an incremental thing. You don't have to have all fear removed before you'll do one step. You just gradually reduce the fear and gradually increase the faith of the trust, and you just incrementally move in that direction. The more you go, the more you experience that things seem to work out or it's not a disaster.

If you fail or you know, the worst-case scenario isn't actually that bad and you start to have more and more confidence in what you're doing. But the first step is actually a leap of faith to make contact with God. It's to get on your knees and ask God to look after me, even though I don't really think, I'm not really sure he exists if you know.

That was the first leap. And fortunately, I didn't have to do that publicly or tell anyone else I was doing it. It was just, just between me and him. Yeah. No, that's so interesting. I mean, it reminds me of a line from Dorothy Day where she said that “Every act of faith increases your faith”, you know?

Yeah. That, and I, I'd like to talk about what faith means to you. I mean, that's one of these words that's thrown around, but like practically speaking, what does that mean to you to have faith or how did you realize that, “Hey, I guess I do have faith, or I see how faith really works”. I mean, what is faith to you?

Well, I would say that it's acting as though God exists. It's, and like in the sense that there's like a God who cares and has a plan. A God who cares and is, but so therefore I worship God because that's the way of relating to God. I, you know, in the church that I belong to.

So I follow the rituals, but. In the end, practically, it does mean that there's less fear. When things don't go my way, I'm not, they don't knock me back and I, you know, it doesn't mean that things go my way because I have faith, you know, I've had lots of setbacks and lots of difficulties as well.

It hasn't all just been sailing off into the sunset, you know, happily ever after. But through this, I realized that there is a consolation that is deeper. That somehow there is this conviction that it's going to be alright. And one point, and it just grows through all these little Dorothy Day steps, if you, if I can call it that. To use your example, that, and that gradually works its way from the inside act. That sense of conviction in your heart, that actually this is gonna be alright, it's not the end of the world. Even the worst thing that can happen. I've lost jobs.

I've had periods where I wasn't earning and I had to sleep on a friend's sofa and this sort of thing, you know, various times. And what came of that was that I realized I had a friend who was prepared to offer me a sofa. You know what I mean? The good comes outta these things. And the more you go through them, the more you worry less about the future.

Also, you start to trust that you lead a good life, a moral life. And engaging with others openly and generously as best you can. You know, I still have to work at that. It's not my natural instinct that is the way to a happy life. And at some point, it occurred to me that this wasn't just a mental construct.

You know, David kind of presented acts as though he exists, do it. You know, everything's based upon this assumption, which we adopt almost arbitrarily. There is a God. We do loving things. We serve others. We pray. We treat him as though so, for example, he told me to say thank you to God right at the beginning for the good things. He said, because God is a person, that's what you do to people who treat you well.

Even though I can't see him, I can't hear him. That's what you do. I didn't feel a sense that, you know, God to me wasn't a person like I'm talking to you. But nevertheless, I behaved as though he was. But what happened at a certain point was just, I just realized that the explanation as to why everything was working out was that it was true that God does exist. He does love me. And he does want me to be happy. And I, and then I started to feel genuinely, not just grateful for what I had, but grateful to God. That was when I explained that to David, he was this, that was the name of the guy. He said, “Oh yeah, that's a spiritual awakening. That's the goal of this”.

And I believe that that's why the highest expression of worship is Eucharist, it's Thanksgiving. It's recognizing that all we have, including our very existence, comes from God and we want to give thanks back to him. Now, that happened to me, despite myself. You know, I went through the motions because I trusted David enough to give it a try, but, immediately, incrementally, I started to feel different, and then gradually the conviction that underlying this was a truth.

That is the explanation as to why this worked because there is a God who loves me and has got my best interest at heart and wants me to be happy and actually makes it if I cooperated in a relatively straightforward process to be happy. Which is an amazing thing for me. I mean, I complicate everything.

This is the underlying, you know, the great truth if you like. This is the pearl of great price. Yeah. Well, I mean, so it's really transformed your understanding of failure because I mean, I think it's, it's helpful just to kind of reveal to us that, you know, as you kind of said that there's been a lot of setbacks. Just tell us a little bit about the setbacks and the failures.

And how that increases your faith rather than deters it. Habitually doing these things. Praying, thanking God. He even told me to thank God for the bad things. He said through gritted teeth if necessary because God loves you. He must have permitted it for a reason, though there is no need to grasp it. So put it on your gratitude list and say thank you. Even if you don't feel like it. But what he was instilling in me is if you like habits, should we say that if you take the action, your heart and mind will follow?

And all I can say is that when faced with a very difficult situation, my response was not to abandon those things, but to double down on them. I think because they've just, they've just become habitual. And then when I found that I was able to do this, which I didn't imagine I was able to, I mean, I don’t know how I'd face, you know, genuine torture or something.

You know, people face far worse hardships than I ever have to, and I'm amazed at how they do it. But you know, for the life that I've had to live the worst things I've had to face, I've found that, that it sees me through. That somehow all I can say is there is a, it doesn't take away the problem. It doesn't even necessarily take away the bad feeling you have, it's just that there is a consolation that runs more deeply than any of those things.

That just, and I just ended up with this, a greater conviction that there is a God. So, and I think maybe this might be the last thing to really touch on here in our conversation. Do you feel as if this is all just something happening in your mind? Like, is this something that you just had to convince yourself, to believe and that this whole project of faith is really a mind game?

Because, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people may think, “Well, that's really kind of what it is. And if that's working for you, fine. But it's still just simply a trick of your mind”. How would you respond to something like that? I mean, okay, so this occurred to me exactly what you're talking about. That it's the that's the sort of benign psychiatrist approach, isn't it?

This works, you know, they don't assume God exists. They just say that. If you have faith and this is good, then that's great for you, but it's not gonna work for somebody else. The assumption being that he doesn't really exist, it's just a natural construct. So I remember thinking about this very quickly, very early on, because I was feeling good.

And then I suddenly sort of had this feeling. I remember the way I put it was to one of David's friends who was doing this similar thing, and I said, I'm just, I'm a bit worried that I'm just deluding myself that things are better. And he, what he said was, put that on your gratitude list and I remember I just burst out laughing.

In other words, you'd say, you know what, you're trying to think yourself into unhappiness here. But yeah, actually further than that, it just, what I would say is that I believe that if you live a life that's a lie, you could generate emotions on a false basis. But if you do that consistently, you end up being insane.

That's what the drug addict does. I mean, they create a feeling of euphoria. But it's through inducing the chemicals without actually inducing changing the reality which ordinarily would create that same chemical reaction, should we say, because you're responding to a real situation.

Sure. And you can't live a life like that for long without becoming insane because it's not rooted in reality. And all I would say is that after 34 years of doing this, it would've collapsed by now. Sure. If it wasn't rooted in reality. That's what I believe. Well, I think that that's, yes.

I mean, I completely agree with that assessment. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I think the thing too that we're kind of glossing over here is that when we talk about things like faith, You know, it's really still ultimately a response from what comes to us from the outside. It's not just us.

Inside ourselves kind of creates a reality around us. It, ultimately, is always a response to what is given. I often like to say that faith in God is not really about us believing in something that we just don't see. It's more about responding to a being who has faith in us that you know that our lives have some type of infinite worth, which is why we exist in the first place and why we continue to breathe, and why our heart continues to beat and why we're just still able to sustain ourselves here.

I mean, our life is sustained by a being that has faith in us to be here, and we respond to that faith. Through an act of faith, in that God. And I think that the best proof of that is when you look past in your life, you look at the back of your life and say, well, I remember when I was there and I just didn't think I was gonna maybe get out that jam, or, I didn't really understand how that was gonna work out.

I feel like I was on a corner, like back into the corner there and somehow we got out of it and we've lived to tell the tale. So it's almost helpful to think of faith, not necessarily about going into the unknown future is as much as seeing this faithful God who has revealed his love, mercy, and compassion throughout our whole life.

And I think that's how I would kind of basically say you have lived your life and, and how you've been able to have the same confidence in this process. Yes. Now as a 60-year-old man. Yes. I was thinking as you were speaking that what strikes me is that, pretty much everything we do, at some level, we're accepting that either God exists or he doesn't.

And then that, and that is the response to, as you say, to what we see. Sure, sure. And, then that dictates the actions we take. Now for some, you know, that doesn't, if I'm hungry and I buy. Sandwich, you know, it's not gonna be very different. But it's amazing how that does have an impact on what I do.

It would choose whether I live well, whether I eat well, and whether all of these things are impacted by that. Very first response. Either I reject God's grace or I accept it and what David was doing, as you say, it's a response and what am I doing? I don't feel the impulse of grace coming into me.

I'm discerning. This through, through the, what's happening around me, the way that people deal with me, the, the what I have to face, right? And, and from the pattern of the world around me constantly, I'm asking that question to this the sign of God or isn't it right? And it's actually a choice. You can, and initially, I did that.

Shall we say mechanically like I am, David's told me I'm gonna adopt a system of actions based upon the assumption that God exists. But through taking those actions, I started to feel better because God is good and he knows you've gotta start where you are, then it becomes easier and easier in the conviction that he does.

It just becomes second nature or higher nature or super nature, maybe you call it that. That's how you start to respond. And I guess it's, and I don't think you would say this, but it's not even, there's just like these God choices and non-God choices. It seems as if almost a non-God choice is God's way of revealing his love to not do this particular thing. Like, you can never escape God's speaking through the good and the bad through the things that seem to be what we consider to be of God or not of God. That everything is playing some type of role because if it exists God's allowing it for some reason.

Well, and you know, I can see that now because all, all that time where I, first of all the period before I met David, First of all, I realized I was being looked after. I mean, I ate every day. I was in bed to sleep in most. I got no credit for it. I had no interest. So nevertheless, I was looked after and I still, at this point, I'd say that was God helping me.

The evidence was there if I chose to look. But God helped me to see that by creating despair, which yes, shall we say, is perfect. Yeah. Enable me to reach out and trust Dave. I mean, things have to be pretty bad if you're gonna take direction from a 60-year-old guy, you've met at a coffee shop for the first time.

Well, David, people will be very blessed if they meet you in a coffee shop and you walk with them somewhere. So I just wanna thank you for this time. Thanks for just. A lot of things that you've imparted to me over the years that you probably didn't even know you have you definitely are continuing David's legacy if you wanna look at it that way.

But more importantly, I think that you're just responding so well to your artistic vocation, which as we began by saying, we all have a vocation to be an artist in a particular way. So thanks just so much for this time and absolutely, hopefully, we can continue the conversation in some way.

I would love to. Absolutely delighted. Yeah. Very sort of. The interesting way of approaching this that you have is unique, actually. Very interesting. Thank you.

I hope you enjoyed Fr. John Grovowich. He will be back as a contributing podcaster. Please share the Sunday to Sunday Witness Podcast with your friends, and if you have comments send them to me annmary@sundaytosunday.com. As always this is Ann Mary Mullane from Kearny, New Jersey for Sunday to Sunday Productions.