Sunday To Sunday Attentive Heart

Welcome to the Attentive Heart Podcast where we explore how an integration of mind, body, and spirit makes us whole and enables us to become more compassionate to ourselves and to others. I'm your host, John Gribowich.

Today, my guest is my friend, Martha. So, Martha, feel free to tell us about your background, a little bit about who you are, and what occupies most of your time these days. Thank you so much, John. It's a real pleasure to be with you. Great seeing you. My name is Martha Hennessy. I'm about to turn 68 years old on the feast of St. Benedict, July 11. I've been part of the Catholic Worker Movement, all my life through Dorothy Tamara's mother, my mother's mother. And I worked, raised three kids, I'm number seven of nine children and raised three kids, myself, my husband and I. And now we have 10 grandkids. And I worked as an occupational therapist for many years, working mostly with children with learning differences, and also the elderly. And what I do these days is, when I'm not volunteering at Mary House Catholic Worker in New York City where Dorothy lived and died. I am here in Vermont. And here in the summertime, it's mostly about gardening, and taking care of grandkids. And we have a five-year-old grandchild here who is diagnosed with aplastic anemia. So I've been helping out a lot here and not spending too much time down in New York City.

Well, you definitely have your, hands filled as far as I can imagine. So we're talking here about Dorothy Day for people who don't know who we're talking about when you mentioned Dorothy. And as maybe you may know, who we were listening to this, or maybe you don't know, Dorothy Day is someone who is being considered to be a canonized saint in the Catholic Church. And it's kind of interesting, of course, that you have a unique perspective on, on your on Dorothy, and maybe, like, how does it feel just move that begin this with? How does it feel to be related to, let's just say, a potential saint, I'm going to say that she is a saint, I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that she is completely embracing all the goodness of the heavenly realm, so to speak, right? And is definitely helping all of us here on Earth. But what's that been like for you? I mean, to always have, you know, right after your name, comma, granddaughter of Dorothy Day, I mean, does that, is there a weight that you have to feel like you've carried you feel like you have to act a certain way be a certain way? What's that all like?

Yeah, it's not easy. So as a child, it wasn't a big deal. You know, she was Granny, she was a very ordinary Granny, even though we all were aware that she was an extraordinary person. And then when I was a teenager, you know, she was a great influence on my life on all of our lives. You know, she, she handed me books, she wrote me beautiful cards, she had a great influence on me. And, you know, in my teenage years, our family was in the middle of leaving the Catholic Church, and that certainly broke her heart. So all of those things come into play now in my adult life, and I just kind of hid out for 25 years, I was raising my family. And I mean, I understood the legacy. And you know, we love we've always loved the Catholic Worker, movement, and community. But I did not get re-engaged until I hit around age 50. And our youngest kid went off to college, and I had to really re-examine my baptism.

And I do think that Dorothy played a hand in all of that, you know, the planting of seeds in my lifetime, and then me having to go through a process of trying to understand, you know, who she was, as a teenager, I was uncomfortable with her religiosity and her piety. I didn't fully understand it. So, you know, it comes with a burden. But you know, I often get these two extreme responses. You know, number one, who's Dorothy Day You mean, Doris Day And then the other response is one of, you know, absolute reverence and awe. And, you know, I can I can I can get both vilified and glorified. And I don't deserve either one of those things, but, our culture tends to do that. Sure. So I don't know, it's been it's been an amazing journey and a very blessed one.

Well, you know, one thing I'm really interested in hearing about is a little bit of your relationship with the Catholic Church, I mean, clearly, you mentioned how you grew up, especially in the context of Dorothy to have a full exposure to what the church is, and what the church is about, maybe you can say was a unique version of it, because Dorothy was unique. But as you mentioned, you were leaving the church. So is there a way that you can walk us through that least maybe that portion of your life,, and maybe we can just walk up to where we are now at that, because I think, speaking for myself, we always, we don't have the most positive relationship with the church. And I think it's probably important to define what we mean by the church when we say that, and I usually kind of say, it's those who seem to whether rightly or wrongly, want to create the narrative of what the church is and how the church should function. And I think whoever those people might be, whether they're bishops, or priests are just somehow representatives of the church. It's their attitude, the way they express things, and maybe even their behavior, which at times over the course of my life, as well, quite frankly, just infuriated me. So what is that? What's that experience been like for you? When you talk about the church? Who is the church when you say that you're that you're leaving the church or that you're struggling with the church? Or?

Well, 98% of the church is the laity. Let's not forget that, then, yes, the clerical power structure is pretty odious. And I do feel like I've been caught between my mother Tom leaving the church and my grandmother Dorothy's conversion as an adult and an intense devotion to the church, you know, from her night, from her age of her 30s. Till her death. So, that's, that's a tough thing. I was certainly raised Catholic. And then I chose to leave the church. And then I chose to return to the church as an adult. And I feel like I've benefited from both worlds, from all of those experiences. From the part of my mother, you know, she was raised Catholic and got married at age 18. To someone who really could not take care of a family, they proceeded to have nine children. So Tom actually retained the best of her Catholic upbringing in terms of loving one another, the golden rule, and just really practicing loving kindness. And she, you know, she struggled with all of the rotten parts of the institution, and she ultimately just walked away from it. Probably mostly because when her marriage failed, you know, the Catholic Church dictated certain things, and then nobody was there to raise these nine kids. I was raised on welfare. And here we have Dorothy saying, You know, don't rely on the state, take care of one another. So I had to work my way through all kinds of idiosyncrasies and contradictions, about the message to the church with regards to women and children. You know, and Dorothy spent her lifetime caring for the most vulnerable. And that's the most powerful message that we can receive from Jesus. That was the example he gave us. That's what the gospel teachings bring us. And that's how we are to practice them.

And so I'm very grateful that I was able to tease through all of this. But you know, on the other hand, God grabs us whether we're ready or not, and God puts us in these places where we can respond. We can say yes, or we can retreat. And I'm just grateful that I was able to see what I saw and respond to this return to my baptism.

Sure. So when you say that Dorothy was devoted to the church, I mean, how do you understand that I mean, clearly, some people will say, well, she was very critical of like bishops and priests and how they were They live their lives and was very frustrated with especially church leadership when it came to issues of nuclear war or just war in general or, you know that there was a certain type of complacency that they have with the American way of life with with capitalism unbridled, if anything, I mean like that, you know, she was hypercritical of the church's either positions or their silence on things. So, how would you understand her devotion to the church?

Yeah, I had to sort that out, too. I mean, I threw out the baby with the bathwater when I left the church, and when we came back into it as adults, were much more prepared. And, you know, I just want to cite this. Another annoying article by written by a man about Dorothy. It's called the stumbling block on the cause for Dorothy's days, canonization by Matthew Walther editor of The Lamp.

Yeah, I just read this. Yeah. And in this, you know, he says something about. But to return to the question of her canonization, it's worth mentioning that at least some days admirers seem to be opposed to it. They Blanche at the very idea of her being recognized by some sinister caricature they refer to as church authorities, even though she was very strident, you know, those words very strident about the question of obedience to the hierarchy. She wasn't obedient to the hierarchy. I don't this guy, slanders Dorothy, as far as I'm concerned. It in her mind, it wasn't about obedience to the hierarchy, she recognized all the shortcomings of these men in power. Her obedience was to the true teachings of Christ. And she tried, she tried to hold the US Catholic Church accountable and responsible to staying truthful and not betray those teachings of Christ, you know, living in poverty, living in the margin, caring for the most vulnerable in the margins of our capitalist system. So she was obedient to Jesus and the Catholic Church frequently messes up.

Sure, sure. Well, I mean, it's so understandable when you feel as if the official interpreter, let's say, of Jesus's teaching comes to the mouths of men who are bishops and priests. I mean, that's terribly frustrating. But I would imagine that there are probably more people who like listening or feel drawn, let's say, to listen to the teachings of Christ that come through the mouth and the pen of Dorothy, you know, and, and I mean, in your travels, and especially, in a time where I think so many people have been disillusioned with the Church and its handling of scandals and whatnot. How do you see Dorothy playing a role in enabling people? Maybe to give let's just say, I don't want to say give the church another chance, but at least give Christianity and their chance to give Jesus another chance. I mean, do you see that happening? I mean, because I know that she could also just be, I guess, interpreted just as a social activist. But I mean, I think he would say that it was her radical dependency on this relationship with Christ that really activated her. So I mean, do you feel that people be more open to what that relationship looks like with Christ, because of what Dorothy says, and even how she writes with a critical through a critical lens of say, church leadership?

Absolutely, Dorothy was a personal Jesus was a personal list. He went to the fishermen and said, Come follow me, you know, on a very personal basis, and Dorothy very much did that as well. I just want to read from all his grace, which I think is a beautiful tribute to her spiritual journeys. The best thing to do in the cause of our redemption and real freedom is to read the scriptures. Then read what the canonized saints have to say, and I support her in this canonization. I do consider her a saint and I do consider her capacity to rejuvenate revive reform the church, you know, to have a saint like that, in the 21st century is something that will bring people back to the church, and in all of my experience of working at the worker and giving talks around the country. But so many people have said it's the calf It worker and it's Dorothy and Peters program that has helped them to keep one foot in the Catholic Church. Right. So, you know, what a blessing what a blessing to have a woman like this, you know, show us the way Give us an example of what it means to be a true disciple of Christ in the 20th and 21st century.

Yeah. I mean, do you see new communities emerging? You know, inspired by Dorothy and Peter, where do you see, like, let's just say a renewal interest happening?
Well, I think new houses are opening that can be kind of extreme from each other. You know, the Catholic Worker Movement, I believe its longevity, we're in our 90th year, longevity can be attributed to tolerance and diversity. And new houses are opening where people are quite like and conservative. And you know, they do misconstrue Dorothy's factual practice and her understanding of Orthodox. And then we have folks who were not even Catholic, sure, and yet, they seem to be enticed by the principles, the underpinnings of the movement. So we have examples all over the map of why people come to the movement and why they want to call themselves a Catholic Worker house. And nobody's the big boss, it is an anarchist movement, we've lost our charismatic leader, it's up to us to, you know, carry on together, to work together. And the bottom line for me is, are you doing the work to alleviate the pain and suffering in the world. And you know, the basic tenets of personalism, voluntary poverty, nonviolence, non-acceptance of war, non-acceptance of war economy. I mean, those are all the underpinnings that come from the teachings of Christ, I believe.

Sure, sure, I've always found it very difficult to find people, let's say who are in some way, shape, or form, well either attracted or not attracted to Dorothy, either super supportive or critical of her, who could really just embrace the whole of her, it's like, they like a certain thing, or they really hate a certain thing, let's say something about her. And I just find her to be such a prophetic voice, that it's like, I have to kind of sit back and be like, I just need Dorothy to be Dorothy, rather than me trying to just latch onto something I like about her or something that I might be uncomfortable with, with her, because the whole person of her in her own complexities is a far greater person to encounter than just say, holding on to certain things that you did that I really want to double down on, you know, and I feel like, you know, even in the canonization process, I mean, there's people from different perspectives who want her canonized or not canonized, let's say, because they want to accentuate certain things, and at the cost of mitigating other things, right is, do you find that to be like, really hard to deal with, as someone who is related to her? You know, oh, yeah,

it's a big quandary. You know, I had to go through this whole process. I mean, I joined the Dorothy Day guild in 2006. And I was accused of having a conflict of interest. But then later, when I consulted with a priest, he said, it's not a conflict of interest for you, you know, being a family member engaging, it's a confluence of interests. So that helped me tremendously. And I've had to let go have these fears of, you know, Mother Teresa being raised up as a patron saint against abortion, when in fact what she was doing was hospice work, helping people to die to leave this with dignity, you know, the same things we do to Martin Luther King Jr. In his legacy. There's always that fear and concern but I've had to let go of it into trust, you know, to trust that her personality, it grabs people, and that her words are written and spoken words will carry the information and you know, we do have people writing about her, misrepresenting her. And that's always happened and that will continue to happen.

The Roman postulator who has been immersed in her writings and her life, just like had an epiphany. He's, he's, you know, you can't study her, you know, honestly, and devotedly study her without being hit over the head. And my sister Kate, right ET now is writing a beautiful series called the provocations of Dorothy Day for the London tablet. And you know, she has her conflicted relationship with the Catholic Church, but she has this very strong, beautiful relationship with her grandmother. Her writings reflect just such beauty and strength and love. And you know, you can't just walk away from what Dorothy makes you face. And you have to figure out, I've had to figure out how am I to fit into this story with my own life and my own choices, you know, the application of my own free will, to follow the will of God. It's not about following our own will. I think that Pope Francis has recently made some beautiful points about Okay, so we're devoted, we go to mass we take in the body of Christ. What do we do after we do that? Exactly. Don't ignore it. We did talk about, you know, this Eucharistic revival happening in Indianapolis and 2024. The last time that was celebrated was in Philadelphia, and Dorothy was one of the speakers there. You know, what is this? Are we going to be evangelists and say, You must come back to the church? What does it mean to be a Catholic? And what does it mean to revive the Eucharist? So we're all faced with that dilemma?

Yeah, I mean, I would love to talk more about this whole Eucharistic revival thing, because I mean, I've had a very conflicted understanding of it, to put it nicely, you know,
millions of dollars is what this event is. Big 1000 people?

Yeah, I was looking at the press release for it. And I was like, Well, you can't say that. We just won't give up on time and recycle the same ideas. I mean, you know, how often do we have these events, spirituality? movements happening, where we're gonna get a lot of people out to do something? I said, at least the 1976. One had better speakers. Yeah, I know. And that was on the feast, I think of the assumption, right, wasn't it? Wasn't it like the bombing? It was the anniversary of the bombing? Yeah, of Hiroshima,
as these guys are just, you know, co-opting this history and these dates, you know, to support themselves in the antithesis of Jesus's teachings.

Right, right. No, I'm first off, I just appreciate your passion with all this because I mean, this is really, these are things that we need to talk about, we can't just kind of gloss over them. But let's just before we get into that because I want against that, I just want to learn a little bit more about how you came back to the church. Because I mean, clearly, as we as we already can tell, it's not easy, even now. So how did you actually say, okay, you know, I'm gonna take this and make this my own? And I'm saying yes, to a relationship with Christ within the context of the Catholic Church. How did that come about? What was the process?

Well, you know, the principles of the Catholic Worker Movement have always stayed with me and all my choices and decisions in my life. I just had to make the decision to be humble, to get down on my knees. You know, my conversion experience is something that I do need to write about to share and convey to people. And it's just a series of events and things where God sews seeds, and we don't see the results until, you know, much later down the road. And, you know, I traveled around the world, I felt the presence of God in a Muslim country, you know, with the call to prayer. I never felt the presence of God in my own country, out in public. It's not that I'm saying we all need to become a theocracy. It's just, you know, how do we treat each other? How do we interact with each other? And it was also out of desperation and ending anxiety about, you know, the way things were going, my son joined the military that was incredibly painful and scary for me. I just found myself being pushed by all of these different factors and people entering into my life at the right moment. You know, I worked as an OT in the public schools. The school was renting from the Catholic rectory. I went to see one of the special ed teachers where my son was going to enter seminary and you know, she was a Catholic. She said, go see father, Ernie. And he told me to start praying In the rosary, and that's something that I did with Dorothy and Tomar. So there were just so many factors, I always understood the social justice aspect of Dorothy and the Catholic Worker. But it had to come to me that the Faith Foundation was what I had to resolve, in my own mind. And I No, of course, the church is corrupt. But there was the Madonna and child, you know, there was Jesus, baby Jesus in the arms of Mary, how can I walk away from that shot? It's hard to explain conversions.

Yeah. Now, I think I remember you sharing with me before, I mean, Father, Dan Berrigan played a significant role in coming back. I mean, could you share a little bit about your relationship with Dan, because I mean, he's a personal hero of mine. And of course, I just didn't know him. And I always like to hear a little bit about him from someone who knew him personally,
I barely knew him. Also, I came into his life when he was quite elderly. I mean, I remember hearing about him, and maybe even seeing him as a kid around the Catholic Worker. But it took me a long time to understand, you know, who he was and the role he played, I understood that Dorothy really loved Dan and Phil, you know, despite their actions that they took that were not necessarily the way she would approach things herself as a lay woman. But it was in 2004, that things really began to rattle in my life. And I just opened, I just spontaneously opened up a letter correspondence with Dan. And what I was trying to do then, was do interviews and maybe get published in the New York paper with these interviews. And I asked Dan about doing an interview with him, and he refused. And, you know, I had to speculate about why he refused, you know, and then the first time that I finally saw him was in 2006. After corresponding with him, I said, my son joined the military. And Dan said, Just pray, just pray. He had just lost Phil, two years previously, and he was still grieving and deep grief. So the first time I actually finally did see him was in June of 2006 when his 85th birthday celebration was happening. Amy Goodman was emceeing it. Kurt Vonnegut, Ramsay Clark, Howard Zinn. There were wonderful people there. Yeah. And he took his sister-in-law, Carol insisted on dragging me into the back room where all the, you know, superstars were. And he, he took one look at me and my face, and he turned his back on me. He felt overwhelmed. I don't know what it was. I don't know why he never explained that to me. And then my last visit to him was at Mary Weigel with Father Moon, the Korean priest who's opposing US military forces in Korea, since childhood, and, you know, I got to see Father Moon feed Father Bear again, Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

And so, you know, Dan was the basis I didn't start attending the ALC retreats until 2007 or eight I'm not remembering. And yeah, he was very he was yet another little seed that was planted for me. Yeah, I was just talking to a friend of mine Supreme Consiglio. I don't know if you know that name. He's a monk out in New Camaldoli in Big Sur. It was recently as his birthday, and he knew Dan, on a certain level, he met him a few times, if anything, and it was often taken in his later years by Dan's great humility. Like even when he met him for the first time, he was just trying to say, you know, Consigliois like, you know, it's, you know, Father Barragan. I really looked up to a great hero of mine, and Phil had died by this point. And he's, the first thing he said was, you know, well, Phil was the real deal. You know, I'm just an effect simile. You know? And he meant it, there were like tears in his eyes. I mean, and if you do watch that documentary, “Devout and Dangerous”, and you hear, especially through Fridas lens, you know, Phil's daughter. How he lived this life and just how consistent you know Phil was with everything. I mean that it's hard to find people like that, right?

I mean, it's hard to find people like that, right? I mean, he sacrificed. He did take time. I mean, how much time he spent in jail. Now, that's something that is when you when you came back to the church and, and getting more involved with the Catholic Worker, do you anticipate yourself going to jail? Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that whole experience and why you went to jail because probably people are asking themselves, why would you have gone to jail?
Well, my first jail experience was in 1979 1980, before Dorothy had died, and that was protesting the Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant in New Hampshire.

Wow. With Dorothy with dark No, no, there it wasn't that Russia? No, no, No, she was everybody was leaving Mary house to, you know, go protest up at Seabrook. And she was nostalgic about that. And all the young folks are going wish I could go. Right, right. He was too old to do anything like that at that point in time. But she was very supportive of people. And, you know, I did three months in county jail. My son was two years old. It was it was traumatic, it was hard. It just so happened that the five other people that I did the action with were Catholics. So that was an interesting experience for me. And then, of course, I didn't do anything like that for the next 25 years. And then my reintroduction, uh, you know, first, I had to return to my faith before I was prepared to return to the Catholic Worker, I believe. And then in 2007, I kind of re-entered the community through the witness against torture, you know, protesting the torture and confinement of Muslim prisoners in Guantanamo. And, you know, the use of torture has always haunted me as horrific not just as a health care provider, but just as a human being. And so, I don't know this business of preparing oneself again, I cannot say that I conscientiously prepared to be to do a Plowshares action. That's that's not how it happened. That's not how it transpired.

Right. Just really quick. Can you tell us who the Plowshares are, and what the posture movement is I'm sure people? Yeah. Phil Berrigan is the founder of that movement, and it was to protest nuclear weapons nuclear holocaust started in 1980. The year Dorothy died, the first action was a few months before she died. There's all this controversy about Dorothy's granddaughter participating in a Plowshares action with this question of secrecy and suppose the destruction of property. So I had to go through a whole discernment process with all of that there's been 100 Such actions and they're beautiful actions, you know, you go, you go to the military base, and you bring the body of Christ with you. We call it a direct nonviolent sacramental act. I was arrested at Kings Bay naval base in Georgia, South Georgia, on April 4, 2018.

And, you know, the 50th anniversary of the state killing of Martin Luther King, Jr. and, you know, all of this just came together, the people that I was with the timing, you know, God opens these doors, and we have to choose whether we're going to step through them or not, right. And up to the very last moment, I didn't know that I could do this that I was prepared to do this, or that I should or shouldn't do this. But I just kept praying, and we kept studying the daily readings and applying, you know, what Christ was speaking of, in our own times. So, you know, I haven't spent a lot of time in prison and the other. The other issue was the drones, the unmanned aerial drones used to kill. I was arrested in Syracuse, New York, and in DC for the Guantanamo travesties.

Sure, sure. How, what was the discernment process, like every time you were about to engage with those actions? I mean, you mentioned it was like a communal type of discernment. You know, like, when you're praying over the readings, and like, what were the practices that were brought into discerning to do something like this? Because many people I'm sure would say like, Well, what is the point of doing something like that? You know, you're not really changing anything. Right? I mean, how do you navigate feeling called to do something and then also just having a lot of naysayers always up against you and then at the end of the day, also realizing like, yeah, I guess nothing really did change other than maybe your own conversion to the whole situation has gotten deeper. But I don't want to put words in your mouth but like, what was the discernment process like

I believe that the judges that we stood in front of were affected. I believe that the community that grew up in Brunswick, Georgia after that action had some effect on many people. You know, is Christ crucified on the cross an utter failure? That's what we go through each time with take these definitive actions. I think, you know, not everybody's cut out to do a Plowshares action, just, you know, in fact, Dorothy had concerns about people being pushed into it, who were not prepared for it. And they came out, damaged. So that does happen, that has happened, King said the same thing, he witnessed people being killed because of what he was, you know, trying to move forward. He felt that immense responsibility. So I don't know, I just found myself to be in a physical, moral, emotional, spiritual place where I could consider walking onto this base, pouring blood, calling out the idolatry of the nuclear gods. Yes, it is a revolution of one's own heart to participate in such an action within the beloved community. And I think every single one of those actions has had an impact. You know, the history of the United States militarization and the nuclear program, there was an impact with these demonstrations and these protests, just like with the Vietnam War, so let's not underestimate what the impact may be the ripple that may be set off. And besides, we're not called to see the results, we're called to just do the work. And whatever grows out of that we're not to take credit for it, we have to remain humble and keep trying to do what we can do in our lifetime.

So given what you have felt called to do, and how you felt called to live your role within the body of Christ. So how do you navigate what we were talking about earlier? The fact that there seems to have been this impetus to have what is known as a Eucharistic revival, because a lot of people who were surveyed over a period of different times and different contexts doubt, what is called the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. So the Catholic bishops are now spending a lot of money as you said, a lot of energy resources. And having this big Eucharist revival conference in Indianapolis, when is it? By the way, I don't know whether it is actually
2024 August. So the bishops want to blame the laity for not feeling the presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Well, it's the bishops and the priests who have failed us, I would be so arrogant as to say,

What you know what one thing I want to first talk about is like, sometimes I just get a little frustrated with surveys like this, because it's, it's a little bit too black and white, as far as I'm concerned. And that doesn't mean to say that, okay, it's not black and white. I mean, I guess you can say, there's something black and white, it's either Jesus's present or not. But, you know, my experience with people going into church, I don't think anyone's going to church, and they don't think that what's happening is some in some way, shape or form, like a holy moment, or a sacred moment of some sort. They may not have it all doctrinally, you know, completely figured out, but I always feel if someone's going to church, I mean, my gosh, that's an act of grace already happening in the person's life. So let's just be happy about that. First off, right, you know, that but then the other thing too, is that, you know, the other thing that runs the risk is that we can really spend a lot of time and energy, whether we're in convincing people or teaching people about the what is the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. But then the question is, well, but then what like, it's almost as like, well, what's the big deal about that? I mean, is it just like, this is like a really, really amazing moment. So it's like, we all have to show up and just like worship, this amazing way that God reveals His presence in the world. I mean, is because I don't think that the Eucharist was really meant to be an endpoint, but really a starting point. So if the high point is the celebration of mass, well, what's really the big deal about that? I mean, how was one transformed by that? I mean, it's almost like a rock concert. I mean, as you may I'm a humongous Bob Dylan fan, right? So I go to the Dylan concerts. And I'm just, like completely enamored by the whole experience right now, I can't say after he mistreated Joan Baez.
That's for another podcast. I mean, like the I mean, but when it's all said and done, I can say that's an awesome experience. I don't know exactly if I'm going to be doing something different now, because of that great experience, or just being thankful for it, right. But I would think, you know, my whole, the reason why the Eucharist has been so transformative in my own life is just that, like, when you're able to see that God reveals His love in such a simplistic, ordinary, conventional way, through a piece of bread, it breaks open, this whole perspective, looking at the world sacramentally, like, everything is more than it appears to be at this point, that especially the person in front of me, I mean, they may appear one way, and they may be saying things and doing things that I find repulsive or offensive, or horrible. But I don't just stop there, because I know there's something more to this person, their breath, their heartbeat reveal the living, real presence of God in my midst. And what role am I doing to affirm that, rather than just kind of dismissing it? Because I don't like what I'm seeing up front. You know, I mean, like, that is the transformative effect of the Eucharist. For me, it's like, oh, I should never just take things at surface level, I should never just take things as simple bread and wine. There's something more and, quite frankly, I don't hear us talking about that when we're talking about Eucharistic revival. So I know I've said a lot. But maybe, maybe you can just tell me how you're negotiating through all these things right now, you know?

Yeah, well, what is the last thing that is said to us? After you know, we say thanks be to God, or before we say thanks be to God, the priest says, Go forth. The masses when they're gonna go forth to love and serve the Lord, to love and serve, go forth, to love and serve the Lord. So what does that mean? How do we practice that? How do we take the body of Christ within ourselves, and, you know, relive it to, if you want to use the word to evangelize, you know, to be an example to others about how we are to live as disciples of Christ. And you know, Dorothy, has a child who recognizes that they everybody is all sweet and devout on a Sunday, and then on a Monday, they're cursing out their neighbors, right? So yes, and I think with the practice of the works of mercy in the houses of hospitality is that person who comes to the door, who is in wretched conditions, that person is Christ, right? And if that's not the heart of an intense revolution, an example of what being a Christian translates into, then we don't have any stronger definition or example of that. Other than this hospitality work, you know, our culture, our society, blames these victims and writes them off as useless. And yet we are there to wash their feet. That's quite a revolutionary idea.

Yeah. And how do you do it, Martha, because that's the thing that I'm always struggling with, like, you know, like, I don't know that I do it well enough, or do it enough. I mean, like, I'm, I'm here in San Francisco. And I live in the Tenderloin. It's perhaps the place where there's the most visible homelessness, visible drug usage, visible mental illness, right. And, you know, I know from the bottom my heart when I'm passing someone, like, I know, that's Jesus Christ. And I know that I'm really not any different than this person. I mean, I don't know their past what landed them here. But I know that we were both brought into this role in the same way and that we're given life in the same way, at this moment in time, so therefore, there is really nothing separating me from that other person. We are all one in the body of Christ. But then I'm still at a loss to feel like well, what is my role as, say, one member that is trying to aid or help another? I mean, usually, I'm thinking to myself, How do I need to be converted by this person? Like, what? What more do I need to understand about my own shortcomings that this person who may be all like, drugged out, couldn't be revealed to me I mean, God's presence works through that person to convert me. It's not just about me, trying to help them I'm meaning like, how is this person actually helping me. But when you think about like these, these situations really require so much that we can't do like, I mean, it's very difficult to work with someone who's high or going through suffering through some type of mental doubt of some sort.

It's the material, it's the material level. What can we do for them on the material level? Yeah, you know, they don't just simply come to us because they want the soup. And the sandwich or the shower, they also want to be acknowledged as human beings and to share to have company, you know, in the realm of occupational therapy, we're trained in what's called the therapeutic use of self. And I think, as Catholics, that's what we're called to do. You know, everyone in our culture is told, you know, you've got to get yourself as much as you can, on the material level, I think the radicalness of Peter and Dorothy is saying, give away what you have materially, and God will give you more to give away, it's a never-ending, possibility of redistribution. And if we're not willing to do that on the physical material level, then how are we going to do it? on a spiritual level? I don't know.

Well, I mean, one thing I've always been inspired with, with Peter Martin is his, and I get this from, Dorothy, because she talks so much about him, was his ability to place limits upon himself. Like, there's this one great talk where she, she was always taken by how there was like a celebration as I said, they had all these cakes, which, as you know, is in the Catholic Worker Movement, you eat pretty well, on a feast day, because everyone brings something or, you know, or they just grabbed something that people were about to throw out, you know? Yeah. And so it was like, Peter have another piece of cake because there's so much cake. And he's like, No, I don't need one. One was enough. I mean, and yeah, everyone else is like, hey, it's a party, let's let's go to it. But like a self-imposed limit. I mean, we live in a type of world where there are no limits. I mean, we have, we've basically said that you know, the goal is to just get as much money, let's say, as you possibly want. I mean, no limit, there's never a moment when I have enough money. Now, I don't need to get more. I mean, that's not even a virtuous way of looking at things. It's like, you should just keep on getting more. So when you have a society that values unrestricted, unlimited amounts of attaining wealth or material things. Well, naturally, you're going to be taking things away from other people in that process. I mean, you can't think that we're not connected that way. I mean, you have to share. So when you say that to people, they're like, Well, I have every right to get what I want. I earned this, I earned this, like, how do you navigate through that? Because I clearly know I have to constantly keep myself in check. I'm like, do I really need this? Or? Or is this something that I feel like I'm getting for some type of ego trip? Or is it making me feel like I'm dealing with insecurity, and this is making him feel more secure? I mean, like, there needs to be like a little bit of discernment in everything that we purchase, like, do I really need this? Do I really need to get this, another bottle of water, which
I'm going to throw out, you know, and once I'm done drinking it, you know,
the planet is collapsing because of infinite consumption in a finite world.

I mean, I like what Chad Myers has spoken, and written about regarding Sabbath economics, that God has given us enough. We must learn how to share and take only what we need. And then capitalism turns that on its head and says, there's a shortage of get as much as you can for yourself and your friends and your family. So that's just a recipe for, you know, the goods not being distributed properly and shared properly. And one thing that this culture reminds me of is, you know, during the Roman Empire, what did they do, they would like, to have orgies and gorge, and, you know, overeat and then vomit so they can go eat some more. I mean, that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. And right now, we have this great adoration for the elite, the rich, the wealthy class, and we all want to be like them. And, you know, to be Christian is the opposite of that, you know, to race to the bottom.

Right. Well, you know, and you do see parts of society that seem to be trying to do The antithesis of that there's like this minimalism type of movement, and like people want to buy small houses and other things like that. But the long-term success of those things, I don't know, if they're really going to be able to turn the side of things is I think it really is. And this is what to get back to Dorothy. And when Peter, I mean, they were so radically dependent, they knew that, that God in some way was going to give them what they need when they needed it, that it wasn't even, it wasn't even so much about organizing your life a certain way, it was about just radical independence, to know that I don't have to really do a lot in order to be able to live a full life. I mean, would you say that Dorothy, like, when you knew her, and it was towards the end of her life? I mean, was she joyful? Was she at peace? Like, how would you categorize that? And be honest, if you can, I mean, because I mean, I've seen her room, I saw the room that she died in, right. And it's a very simple place, surrounded by people with tremendous suffering, but you know, also lots of love in the midst of all that. I mean, what, how do you think Dorothy, at the end of the day, look back on her very storied life? And how does she feel a failure?

I know that that has been mentioned. That year, the world is the same, despite all these efforts, at redistributing the goods, a revolution of the heart, you know, begin to understand what the gospel teachings look like, and what they require. But I find my memories of both my mother and my grandmother were one of just deep, deep, quiet, contentment. Just appreciation for the simplest, most beautiful things in life. And you know, that being each other family, nature, the beauty of nature, living on this earth, and an appreciation for, for the human Akash accomplishments that do celebrate, you know, great works of art, great music, Dorothy appreciated and understood that those are all gifts from God as well. And we don't have to be frugal in our enjoyment and appreciation of,, what God has given us. And also, let's not forget the term precarity you know, living, living precariously, depending on each other's love and generosity, and trusting that God does provide if we love one another, like we are to love God. It's a simple, it's a simple lesson. But it's not easy to practice. And materialism just really leeches in from all sides, the misuse of you know, the goods of the world that we do need to have available to us, of the hoarding. It's all a form of idolatry. And neither of them, neither of them had any speck of that kind of attachment to stuff.

Well, that's tremendous grace, right. And I think it's grace that's open to all of us to do that. I really appreciate the time that you spent here talking about all these different things. Maybe just as a way to conclude, I mean, for yourself personally, how do you what do you do in order to not get sucked in? So to speak the way you want to say the materialistic capitalistic, unrestricted, unlimited type of attainment of goods wealth, that is so highly valued in today's culture? Are there certain practices that you have incorporated in order to remind you of that or to help you not get Yeah, go to go to prison?

That's that's, that's a that's a great stripping down. Yeah, I don't know. I struggle with it daily. I live in a beautiful place in Vermont. When I go down to marry house, it feels chaotic and bleak. And I am kind of a materialistic person. I mean, I do like beauty and I do like comfort. But it's very easy, I think, to discern when it's over the top for goodness sake. You know. I love that Buddhist saying that, you know, human desires or unsatiable. Or we get the more we want. So, I don't know it's, you know, gratitude and appreciation. have what we have, and recognition that we're not going to be sustained or fulfilled through material desires or ownership of too much stuff. And, you know, we live in a culture, that's completely gluttonous. I mean, there's so much waste, Mary, Mary house gets all kinds of domain donations to redistribute the goods. So I don't know, it's not easy, but it's not hard. It's a daily practice. And one way to keep yourself in check is to just see how your own body literally feels. I mean, our eating practices are just so out of whack in our society and culture, the way we raise food. You know, here in Vermont, we raise most of our food, and that's an incredible blessing. It's hard work. But it's the best way to sustain oneself and to subvert the capitalist system. Sure. Drop out, and stop consuming so much.

Yeah. Well, Martha, thank you so much for spending time with me here and just giving me a little bit of a personal window into Dorothy and Peter and a little bit of your own conversion story and also just giving us some hope to know that, you know, we actually can make a difference one small step at a time with one small action at a time, which really, is the little way that Dorothy even writes about in model of Teresa. So God feels our happiness, God feels our joy. That's what God wants to receive from us, you know, not unhappiness and discontent and unsatisfied lives. Have joyful lives. That's, that's what it's all about.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Attentive Heart Podcast. We hope that you were able to find it helpful in your spiritual journey in practice. This podcast is produced in collaboration with Sunday to Sunday productions and the Witness podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, and you'd like to help support the podcast, please subscribe and share it with friends.