CALLED to Sing with Guest LMU's Choral Director John Flaherty
Welcome to the Attentive Heart podcast where we explore how an integration of mind, body, and spirit make us whole and enable us to become more compassionate to ourselves and to others. I'm your host, John Griepwich. And today, my guest is John Flaherty, who comes from LMU. But I will not say any more than that. So John, how about you tell us a little bit more about your background and what occupies most of your time these days?
John Flaherty:My father, John, thank you very much for the I'm invitation to be with really pleased to be here and privileged also. So I'm at Loyola Marymount University, where I serve as the Special Assistant to the Vice President of Mission and Ministry. I've been here for almost thirty years now. Wow. And yeah, almost, I can't believe it, almost thirty years.
John Flaherty:And I've served the university as the director of liturgy and music. Then I was the associate director of campus ministry where I supervised a staff of 15 individuals and managed the budget area for that. And under my supervision were at any given time might be two or three Jesuit priests, two or three women religious, a Jewish rabbi, a Muslim imam, or a student life representative whose service are Muslim students, any number of Protestant ministers, and several lay Catholic ministers. So that's what I did for many years. I developed and launched two certificate programs that are offered through the Center for Religion and Spirituality, the center that we're working with right now on the channel.
John Flaherty:And those were pastoral liturgy and pastoral music certification programs. And at this point, about three fifty pastoral ministers out there, liturgists and music directors working out there in the larger world are graduates of that program.
Father John:Wow. It's amazing. I've been so excited to talk to you because so much of my background is in liturgical music. And first off, I didn't know you had the position that that you have. How long have you had the current position?
Father John:You said you're in in a Right. Assistant to the vice president. What was the title again?
John Flaherty:Special assistant to the vice president. What I do is I oversee a lot of the large liturgical events, but I also produce and direct a lot of the large secular events such as the President's State of the University address and different convocations that welcome students and parents here. Gotcha. So that's what I do now. The first fifteen years of my career were spent in K-eight Catholic education.
John Flaherty:So I taught all grades K-eight at that time and I became a school principal. I was a Catholic school principal for a few years before I made the leap to the university level.
Father John:And this was all in Los Angeles?
John Flaherty:Yes. Okay.
Father John:Great. Well, let's start at the very beginning because like I said, liturgical music, humongous part of my own upbringing. I do not think I would even be a priest if it wasn't for the liturgical music that I experienced specifically in in the nineteen eighties, and that wasn't too far too many years after the council, and there was lots of, I guess, they they would say now experimentation. But I think there was some amazing music that came from that time that really taught me how to pray, gave me insights into scripture. I'm sure you resonate with that as well.
Father John:But tell me about your own journey with how you got into music, maybe in general, or more specifically with liturgy. How did that all begin?
John Flaherty:Sure. Well, I'll go back to the very beginning. I was born and raised in Japan.
Father John:Wow.
John Flaherty:I'm half Japanese. My mother is from Southern Japan, which was the most Catholic region of Japan because Portuguese Jesuits, they landed in that part of Japan. In fact, the movie Silence, the island of Go To, is probably about 50 miles from where my mother was born and raised.
Father John:Wow.
John Flaherty:In Kumamoto Prefecture. She was not Catholic, but she was born in a Catholic named hospital. This is long before she ever met my dad. This was during the Second World War. And she grew up during the war.
John Flaherty:And in the post war years, my dad went to Japan. This Irish American from Brooklyn, New York, where you're Nice.
Father John:Where was it in Brooklyn? Remember where you
John Flaherty:grew up? I don't know. You know, I have to look at the high I have to find his high school and share it with you.
Father John:Okay.
John Flaherty:It was a public school. Nice. But that would have been in the forties, fifties, fifties. Okay. Probably.
John Flaherty:Anyway, so he went to Japan. He got stationed in Japan and met my mom there and I was born and raised there. For how long?
Father John:For how long?
John Flaherty:I didn't come to The United States until I was 14.
Father John:Wow.
John Flaherty:Yeah. And so I think that one of my areas of love and expertise is enculturation of the liturgy. And I'm sure that being bicultural and bilingual is all part of that and on top of being a naturalized citizen. My mom was Catholic. She became Catholic when she met my dad.
John Flaherty:We were born and raised Catholic. Played music in the bass chapel on Sundays, and one hour it would be the Catholic Mass. And base chapels are similar in that the Catholic Mass would be at ten, at 11:30 might be the Protestant service, and later on, day before would be the Jewish service, and it all happened in the same building. And so I think that's probably also why I love ecumenism, ecumenical work and interfaith work too. But music, I started playing music as a child and it's always been part of me.
Father John:What was your instrument?
John Flaherty:It was guitar. My instrument in college was I was a voice major, but played guitar, bass, keyboards and a few of the wind instruments, but not good enough that you never want to hire me.
Father John:So what type of music were attracted to during that time? Like, when you're like, so, like, I'm imagining when first off, like, were you speaking Japanese at home too? Or, like, what what was it like when you're growing up in Japan?
John Flaherty:We we spoke English English and Japanese. We went to, you know, the base, you know, the American language schools. Mhmm. Mhmm. You know, what's interesting is I I look back at my confirmation certificate and I was confirmed by Bishop Quinn of San Francisco.
Father John:Really? Wow.
John Flaherty:Yeah. Wow. He was the auxiliary of San Diego in the sixties. And the way that they would do it is, you know, you get an American bishop that would come over every few years and they get all the kids together and we all get confirmed And I didn't know that as a young adult, and I wish I did because I had interactions with Bishop Quinn when he was in San Francisco. Later, you know, later as an adult, as a liturgist and as a musician.
John Flaherty:So I wish I would have had the presence of mind to make that connection, but I never did before he passed away.
Father John:Wow, that's amazing. That's really interesting. So alright. So the music, what type of music were you attracted to?
John Flaherty:Yeah. You know, all kinds. When I was in college, I was classically trained. I'm a choral director. In fact, I've served as the director of choral activities here.
John Flaherty:So, my primary work seems to be most publicly in what I don't know what we might call contemporary liturgical music, but I'm classically trained and I love choral music and I love melding music from across the centuries and between cultures. So, when we came to The United States as a teenager, I was probably like you, John, we played in the guitar group, right?
Father John:Yep.
John Flaherty:At our church, my dad was stationed out in Riverside, California at March Air Force Base, and we became parishioners at a church out in that area. We played music, and you're right, it was a time of experimentation and of learning. I even remember, I don't know if you remember. I think I'm a little older than you. I remember playing Let It Be during a mass.
Father John:Right, right.
John Flaherty:Because of course, it says Mother Mary, come to me. That was But there was other, you know, there was other music that was being written, Ray Repp and, you know, Ron Griffin, Bob Heard, you know, in the early days, Marty Haugen, you know, I'm happy to say that, you know, with the exception of Ray Repp, all of those others, you know, and many more became friends Yeah. For the years.
Father John:Yeah. I think the music of the Saint Louis Jesuits were was that was really Yes. Very, very influential for me. Yeah. Those songs I I still revisit in lots of ways.
Father John:I mean Yes. I I I some people question their their legacy in some ways, but I I think there's a place for their music and and also the music that also came around that that time. I think there were some type of really profound infusion of the spirit. Yes. And and and maybe that's one way of looking at it.
Father John:I mean, how was your experience with music drawing you closer into a relationship with God? Did you did you sense that connection? Was there a spiritual thing happening with you and music?
John Flaherty:That's a really great question. And I think the answer is that the journey was circuitous because when I was a teenager, I was playing in rock bands, and even as a teenager, we got into some clubs that we couldn't, I mean, they were, the drinking age was 21, but a couple of the bands that I played in were good enough that they could play these clubs and then we'd have to go outside during our break times. But you know, I wanted to be a rock star.
Father John:Yeah, cool.
John Flaherty:All 18 year olds, right?
Father John:What type of rock music did you like?
John Flaherty:Oh, my gosh. Everything from the Eagles to Zeppelin to all of the classic rock of the 70s and 80s, Kansas. And I didn't know Kansas was a band that was populated by Christians and who were writing about Christian motifs and themes during the time. I just loved their music.
Father John:Yeah. Wow. That yeah. That's cool.
John Flaherty:You know, Queen. I mean, I saw Queen twice. I saw Frank Zappa.
Father John:That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Flaherty:But Kansas, Carry On Wayward Son is a song about the prodigal son.
Father John:Right. Right.
John Flaherty:There are so many other. James Taylor, of course, I love James Taylor. But all of that music. So I was playing music in rock bands, but also playing on Sundays. And I don't know, I think the best, I don't know, it's kind of a funny descriptive, but I think I'd like to say that God said, I think I need to keep a closer eye on you, so I'm going to put you over here.
John Flaherty:And, you know, my journey took a turn and, you know, didn't I never played the troubadour. I always wanted to play the troubadour, but my dream came true when our son James played the troubadour. So I thought, well, God has a funny way of fulfilling your prayers and your wishes and your dreams.
Father John:Doesn't what's he up to your son?
John Flaherty:We have five children. James is our middle son and actually he lives in Brooklyn now.
Father John:Oh, fun.
John Flaherty:He and his wife moved to Brooklyn, but he's been on tour with Imagine Dragons for the past year and a half.
Father John:Oh, wow. What does he play with them?
John Flaherty:So he plays drums. He sometimes he played for a while with Halle Bailey, was Dixie D'Amelio's music director. A bunch of names of musicians I don't know. Yeah, you have to be 16 to 22 to know a lot of these names. But he does.
John Flaherty:He's what they call the playback Ableton Live specialist with Imagine Dragons.
Father John:Oh, wow. Amazing. I saw Imagine Dragons before they really got big. It was it was at a free show in Philadelphia. This was like fifteen years ago or whatever.
Father John:And I was really so taken by their drumming actually. So like, I mean, they're really anyway, well, that's that's great.
John Flaherty:Yeah. So we have five kids. They're all musicians. They all went to Catholic school from kindergarten all the way through Jesuit universities. So
Father John:That's that's really that's really great.
John Flaherty:Yeah. We're really blessed. So
Father John:So then when did you make, like, the hard decision or if I don't know if it was a hard decision, but, a very, you know, concerted decision that, okay, I'm I'm gonna become really, let's just say, a master of liturgical music or choral music or or or religious, however you wanted to kind of define it. When when did that that become like the path for it
John Flaherty:that you said? I think it happened gradually, John, and I think I did my undergraduate degree at Pepperdine University in Malibu. And I lived in Malibu for those years and I stayed afterwards. But I did my student teaching at the little Catholic school there, Our Lady of Malibu, which is just beneath Pepperdine University. And so I did my student teaching there, then they hired me even before I graduated to teach.
John Flaherty:And then the parish hired me to direct music on Sundays. And being at Pepperdine, wanted to go actually, I really wanted to come to Loyola Marymount because it was Catholic, but Pepperdine gave me a full music scholarship and LMU, I couldn't get enough financial aid. So I went to Pepperdine, which is a decision that I really pleased that I made because we had a small group. Pepperdine is a university founded by the Church of Christ, which is a Protestant denomination. Their practice is that they have no accompanied instruments.
John Flaherty:And one of the things that just impressed me was that you'd go to Sunday worship and you'd have a congregation of just people from all walks of life and they would sing in four part harmony, this congregation would. Wow. But they were not very open to Catholics. And so, the Catholics students, we found one another and we kind of created this little group that we hung with. And I thought, I'd like to start a Newman club here at Pepperdine because there's a number of us here.
John Flaherty:So I went to the dean and I said, I'd like to start a Newman's club. And he said, John, you could do that, but how badly do you want to keep your scholarship? And so I thought, well, we're like Diana, might we. So I decided to keep my scholarship. But anyway, to fast forward a little bit, I started teaching at Our Lady of Malibu full time, started directing music full time.
John Flaherty:I loved that little community. I learned a lot teaching there and directing there. And it was a crazy kind of time and I was so naive and so young, I didn't even realize what I was in the presence of. And it was the kind of, it's a small church that would seat maybe 200 people, two fifty people. It was a very small community in Malibu in those days, was a very sleepy, secluded enclave.
John Flaherty:And so on Sunday morning, might have Martin Sheen proclaiming the first reading and Carol O'Connor claiming the second reading. Stacey Keats would be sitting right there next to the choir. He had a place that he sat right next to the choir and Melinda Dillon, who was an actress would sing in the choir. I mean, lot of people would sing in the choir and later on, Pat Benatar became school mom and was a cancer, you know, and it was just that kind of place, you know, and, you know, the Penn family that Sean Penn and Chris and Michael, you know, their mother was a daily mass attendee. And a lot of these families and people invited me into their homes and their lives, and it was just an incredible place.
John Flaherty:And then from that, Martin Sheen asked if I would score two of his films simply because he loved what I did on Sundays. And so I said, sure,
Father John:you know. Wow, that's amazing.
John Flaherty:So it's like it's almost like it was almost like a Forrest Gump kind of falling into these interesting circumstances that you could never manipulate or wouldn't. I was so young and naive, just didn't even realize what I was in the presence of. And the pastor was an Irish pastor who published a lot of books, he was well respected. So it was really an interesting place. The sisters of St.
John Flaherty:Louis of France, which were an Irish, predominantly Irish community and dedicated to education, They hired me and one of my great mentors was the sister of St. Louis. Would sit next to me to bring this back to music. She would sit next to me on a little first grade stool and she'd tell me when to play. Because, you know, as a young director, I didn't know what to play when.
John Flaherty:And, you know, yeah, there are a couple of times that I'm that I know that I played, you know, the song Twice. You know, she was patient, she was a great mentor and I love her for, there's a phrase, for being one of the people who loved me into whoever I am. She was patient, she was a great mentor, a great teacher. And later on, she went to Long Beach and she called me one day and asked if I wanted to come to Long Beach. And I said, Sure, I'm a young bachelor, I have nothing to do and nothing tying me to Malibu and I'm ready for a change.
John Flaherty:I went to Long Beach and that's where I met my wife. She was a brand new second grade teacher. I wasn't looking to get married. It was the farthest thing from my mind and met her and got knocked off of my horse, it's all been. And we raised our children in that parish.
John Flaherty:They graduated from that school and they went on.
Father John:Amazing, amazing.
John Flaherty:And a great ride, but you were to ask the 17 year old me if this is what I'd be doing, I'd say no way.
Father John:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that is really so much that we talk about in a lot of these interviews. It's just like all of life is just really about responding to things. You think you're always in the driver's seat, and you think you have this whole ability of being so strategic with where you wanna end up.
Father John:But it's really about how well you respond to the things that are presented to you. And and and that really says a lot of
John Flaherty:Yeah.
Father John:Of of really how the spirit works. I mean, whether we call it that or not, I think that that's just what it what it is. Right? So, know, we we were in this world with other people, and these other people are the ones who actually become our conduits of of the of who God is in our life and and how we're being drawn into a deeper awareness of God's love and and vocation for ourselves. You know?
Father John:So let's maybe just jump to what you have been able to do roughly the last thirty years. I know that you have a very instrumental role, no pun intended, in the archdiocese of Los Angeles, also with the LA Congress. Maybe some people don't even know what what what congress is. But when did you get involved in more of these archdiocesan activities that really brought you to the more maybe to the forefront of directing and also maybe kind of being more liturgically sensitive and and how did that how did that affect you and what are you doing with it now? Like, I mean so that's a lot of stuff to to talk about, but you I'm sure you can piece it together.
John Flaherty:Sure. Well, let me let me just start with and so I'm teaching Yeah. You know, in this Catholic school, I'm directing music in these Catholic parishes, this is a very young guy, and a friend said, this Jesuit liturgist is going to come and speak at Mount St. Mary's College. And I said, I don't want to go.
John Flaherty:I know what I need to know, and I'm doing it. But they talked me into going. They coaxed me into going. And that Jesuit liturgist was Father John Gallen, who was a giant in terms of liturgical reform after the Second Vatican Council. And I remember listening to him speak, and my mind I think my head just exploded because I saw everything that you and I do, John, that we do in with new eyes.
John Flaherty:And I just thought, I need to know more. And through John Gallen, I met him. I stayed afterwards. We talked and he was generous with his time and got to know him better and better and started to study with him and people he had teaching at the Corpus Christi Center for Advanced Liturgical Arts in Arizona. And he was teaching some here in LA.
John Flaherty:He was just starting that in LA. And through that connection, I met Rory Cooney and Gary Daigle and Cyprian, who was going by the name Dan Consiglio, Tom Kensia, who were all taught by John. So I got to meet these individuals and I continued studying liturgy and music with John and some of the people he had teaching with him. And things kind of exploded from there. And as far as the Religious Education Congress goes, it was a conference of about in the late '80s, it was a conference of about 30,000 people, Catholics who came from all over the diocese, from all over The United States.
John Flaherty:At its apex in the early 2000s to about 2015, the numbers that Congress the number of delegates that would attend the Los Angeles Religious Education Congress was 42,000 to 45,000 people. Wow. And it would happen every year in Anaheim. Well, there was one year where the music director took ill, he couldn't direct the music. And Greg Hayakawa, who was a friend, I don't know if you know that song.
John Flaherty:I am the light of the world.
Father John:Oh, sure. That
John Flaherty:was Greg Hayakawa who wrote that song. Said to Sister Edith Prendergast, Well, I think this John Flaherty might be able to direct this for this year. And so I directed it that first year. I said yes, without knowing what I was saying yes to, right? I played in the band.
John Flaherty:But in those days, the band consisted of one conga player, one piano player. I played synth not very well, Greg would play guitar. And I think somebody played the flute. It was like a parish pickup choir for this big convention. And the choir was about 10 voices.
John Flaherty:And so, maybe 20 voices. And I directed that first year and did well. And here I am directing all of these people who are my heroes at the time, Marty Haugen and so many others, Bob Hurt, Chris Walker, and Barbara Bridge. And all I could think of, John, was when I stood in the crook of the piano to begin the piece of music, all I could think of was, Lord Jesus, just get me through this rehearsal. Just get me through this rehearsal.
John Flaherty:Because all of these people who I thought were, you know, who again were my heroes, they're all looking to me for direction, you know. So I started conducting and I'll never forget this. And this is one beautiful thing about Marty Haugen that I will never forget. Marty and I became good friends and I directed choirs and vocal groups on a few of his recordings and he asked me to conduct, this is in later in the later years to conduct several of the major events that he did with those beautiful oratorios he used to write. But my first encounter with him was him sitting at the piano, Bob Heard, David Haas, and all the rest of them, Chris Walker, all standing on the stage looking at me.
John Flaherty:And we sang one of Marty's songs, and I thought, all I could think of was, thank God I got through the rehearsal of that. And when we finished the song, I said, now can we take that up tempo, please? Because I thought we'd rehearse it again. And Marty leaned over the piano very quietly and got my attention by just tapping in front of me because he didn't want to attract any attention to himself. And he just whispered to me and he says, John, that was up to tempo.
John Flaherty:And I thought, there is such a great model of humility in that man because he could have embarrassed this young whippersnapper, right? He could have done anything that could have just dashed my dreams, the experience, the moment. And he did that so graciously, so quietly. And so when he said that, I said, you know what? Let's just leave it there and move on.
John Flaherty:From there, you know, it took off.
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John Flaherty:Now, there was one musician who I will never name, who after my first rehearsal said, May I call you tomorrow? And this is a very well known musician. You know who it is, and I'm not going to mention the name because it's not important. And I said, yes, please, I would love to talk to you tomorrow. And that musician, that composer called me the next day and said, you have no business doing this.
John Flaherty:You're completely out of your league. You're not qualified to do this. You should just not do it and let someone else who's better do it. And I was devastated. I hung up the phone.
John Flaherty:I was devastated. And then I got then I said, no, I can't do this and I'm going to do this. Wow. And whatever was in me to not be completely crushed, I'm grateful for. And I think that was a God moment.
John Flaherty:Sure. And from there on, everything just took off. And so that John, that's one, I think that's one reason, it's not the only reason that I'm so committed to teaching and mentoring and opening doors for others. And I never ever want to be that person that tells a young person who's passionate about what they're doing that they should just sit down and not do it. Wow.
John Flaherty:And that's why I have the saying when I get a call to do anything, the first question that I ask myself is who else can I take along for this ride? And I think I've shared that with you. If I fast forward from that moment to my later life, it was through a whole series of wonderful circumstances and well, just different circumstances. The International Association of Firefighters found me and they're based in Washington DC. And so this is just one example.
John Flaherty:Whenever multiple firefighters are killed in the line of duty anywhere in this country, I've gotten the call to put together these huge choirs and to coach speakers at these huge civic, largely secular memorial services that are held in stadiums and amphitheaters. And again, my question is that I ask myself it's an honor to do that for firefighters, first of all. And it's I always ask myself, who can I take along for this ride? And so I've worked with, at the time that I've worked with Vice President Biden's staff a couple of times when he was vice president. I've worked with so many senators and House representatives and their staffs.
John Flaherty:I've coached firefighters who are delivering eulogies because it's not just the music, it's how to help these people speak publicly. But I've had students, I've had students on stages, was one particular one that was at Dodger Stadium and there's the Vice President of The United States speaking and off in the distance right behind on a small stage are three students and a staff member and another former student singing the music for that event. And I could have put myself in that place and just made it about me. But I think the only way that you and I can give thanks to those who have mentored us and loved us into who we are is in turn loving others into who God calls them to be. So that when those people perform or when they minister or do whatever they do, people can see our influence.
John Flaherty:But what we see is the influence of the people who mentored us. Sure. We see our mentors in how those individuals, number one, perform music, sing, play, occupy time and space as a minister. We see our mentors in those people. Sure, sure.
Father John:Yeah, that's such a great, great point because and I think it really touches on a lot that we're trying to do at the event that we have at at LMU coming up in September because it really is looking at how we have been brought to where we are through some form of calling. And we've been kind of affirmed that calling through the mentors and people in our life who've who've said, yeah. This is what you really should do, and I will be on the journey here with you to to help you to continue to say yes to what has been in your heart. But as it is, I mean, we are all, especially creative people, we're all creative in our own way. And we all have to deal with our insecurities too, where we're feel like we're not good enough or we overcompensate thinking that, you know, we are good enough and no one else can is better than we are.
Father John:Right? Like, we we we we fall into all these different types of traps. Musicians, as you know, are very difficult to work with because the the of all those types of insecurities. I mean, I I only say that because I know I am that. So I'm not, like, I'm not pointing fingers.
Father John:And and to be able to kinda let go of that in some way is it's a real practice. Like, you have to really be always checking in with yourself. Like like, why am I doing this? I mean, am I doing this because I know I've been called to do this, or do I think that, like, somehow I'm just, like, really so super special? You know?
Father John:Like, there there's a there's a a thin line between those as well because we are super special in the eyes of God. So but but only because God has empowered and and given us the graces to to do everything first off, but in our case, specifically music and liturgy and and just to lead people in prayer. But this whole idea of really looking to see who is the other person out there that you can maybe affirm the call that seems to be placed on their heart, that's a really important practice in and of itself. And it's one that doesn't happen that often. I mean, you you would think it would, but the very fact that you personally, John, are doing that, that's a it's a great testament because it's easy not to do those, just put it that way.
Father John:It's just easy to kind of become complacent and just do our thing and know that we're good at it and and and but not to think that future generations are dependent upon us in some way. But but they are. Right? How and and was it just really that moment at the LA Congress where you're like, okay. You know, I never want to be that guy, so to speak.
Father John:Or was there other moments that you were like, you know, I really do feel called now to be able to affirm the calls that is placed on other people? I mean, that's a very that's like a call within a call. Right? So
John Flaherty:Well, I think it's probably a series of a small circle of teachers and mentors, and you can probably name your own. Just do a faculty retreat. I do retreats, facilitate retreats for faculties, too. I'm doing three in this. No, I'm five in this late August season.
John Flaherty:And one of the questions I always ask people is, who's that one teacher whose name you'll never forget because they saw something in you that you didn't recognize in yourself, right? Who are those individuals who loved you into who you are and did generously so generously? And we speak about musicians and artists. And part of what I think drives that insecurity sometimes is the fact that we're so exposed in front of people. Right?
Father John:Right.
John Flaherty:And there aren't many professions like that other than people who are artists and people who put their very souls out in front of people. And that's a very, very vulnerable place to be. And so there are all kinds of ways that people compensate for that, some good and some less attractive. But I think, John, what we do and I've seen this as a teacher and a minister and as someone who has supervised ministers, we either teach and we mentor and we empower people to do what we do. Either that or as I've seen too many times, people abdicate their responsibilities and they just get a student or a young person to do their job without really fairly equipping them before they ask them to do it.
John Flaherty:And I'll give you an example. There's a music student recently and a veteran musician who didn't service one week and spent forty five minutes with this young student and then said, Okay, you can do the Sunday Mass now. Well, that's not teaching anyone anything. That's abdicating responsibility, right?
Father John:Right, right, right.
John Flaherty:And so what I think what helps young ministers to develop into who they might be is to be with them. I use the analogy in a description that when we you and I spoke at one time, somebody puts you in the shallow end of the swimming pool when you couldn't swim, right? But they were there and they didn't let you drown. You knew that they were right there, which allowed you to take a few risks. And then they took you a little bit deeper into the pool.
John Flaherty:And then they put you in the deep end of the pool and they were standing on the side of the pool. They weren't even in the pool with you. And one day you woke up and you were swimming in the middle of an ocean. And they weren't physically there, but you knew that they were there with you because they supported you throughout your journey. And that person always remains with you.
John Flaherty:And we talk about this when we celebrate the Eucharist. We believe that our loved ones are on the other side of that table. And in the former Missal, we used to hear it. We pray with all the angels and saints in their unending hymn of praise. It was so very clear in the last, in the former missile that those angels and saints, that great communion of saints, that cloud of witnesses is celebrating this Eucharist with us in this very moment and sharing this Eucharist.
John Flaherty:And that s how connected we are to the people who loved us into being. So how could we not love others into who God is calling them to be having been given so much so generously through the presence of Christ in others in our lives? Yeah. I don't know if that's an answer to your question.
Father John:It's a beautiful answer. I mean, also one thing I was thinking too, mean, John, you're such a person of the liturgy, and I feel like something really that captivated you. I I know that it was probably from very early on, and then maybe everything start to make even more sense when you met John Gallen and and things like that, and then you were given all these opportunities. I mean, would you say like, what is what does it mean to you to have a liturgical spirituality? Like, what does that mean?
Father John:Because we know that liturgy is so about the community. It's it's a common worship. But what does it mean to have that as part of a personal spirituality? Is is that the point of of your particular contact with God? Or would you or am I way off?
Father John:Or is that just one of the thing ways that you kind of are encountering the divine?
John Flaherty:Yeah. I think it's one of the ways. I look at everything through the lens of ritual.
Father John:Okay, yeah.
John Flaherty:Mean, human ritual is human ritual and doctrine and dogma are based in human experience, right? And what I mean by that, it's based in your human experience. It's our human experience. And there are so many beautiful ritual moments in the Eucharistic liturgy and several other Catholic prayer forms. Well, one of the reasons that I started those programs is because I realized that there are a lot of people directing music, directing, shaping liturgy who don't know what they don't know, because that's who I was.
John Flaherty:That's who probably were.
Father John:Right, right.
John Flaherty:Until you had that moment of epiphany, you know, where someone something someone said or taught opened your eyes to see a new way of being. And so I look at so many different things in terms of through the eyes of ritual and through relationship. To bring this back to what you and Kathy have come up with and conceived is that I think when you do this day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year, it's like anything, you can get lost in the doing and you forget the being. And what I love about what you and Kathy have developed here, it's almost like a retreat experience. Maybe it is, maybe I don't want to say almost a retreat experience.
John Flaherty:I think it is a retreat experience that you take these, I'll say, pastoral ministers on. And it's a way of reminding them all of the questions you're asking me, and it's like the road to Emmaus, and I'll just put it in these words. Remember when we first fell in love? Remember that feeling? Which is not too far from what the disciples on the road to Emmaus were saying, gosh, do you remember when our hearts were on fire and remember when we first got touched by the presence of Christ.
John Flaherty:There are times when Kathy and I have been together and we see the kids do something. Mean, they're all grown now. Or we have those moments in time and you've had those moments. And I remember looking at Kathy sometimes and saying, please don't let me ever forget this moment, because those are the transcendent moments. And what I think you and Kathy have developed here is an opportunity for people to be still out of the noise and to listen to their hearts again.
John Flaherty:And Gabe Huck wrote at one time, he said, We're awash in music and robbed of our song. And when you think about it, our lives, even more so now with ear pods and started with Walkmans and the earbuds and all of that, we're constantly surrounded by noise, by music, music. Right.
Father John:Right.
John Flaherty:But then, you know, we're afraid of the silence and there's there's a there's music in that silence, right? And the beauty of the silence is the music. And, you know, it's like Miles Davis used to say, don't play and you and I've talked about
Father John:this both
John Flaherty:resonated with this. Right? Well, you
Father John:Yeah.
John Flaherty:You say, you you tell it. Remember
Father John:I was preaching on it. It's it's not so much what you play, but what you don't play. It's where it's where where where you're able to know where the silent moment should be, you know, for you to or or if anything to allow someone else to be playing.
John Flaherty:Yes. And that's the conversation in that's that's the dialogical nature of music, human interaction. It's what the Eucharistic liturgy is about. The Lord be with you and with your spirit. It's a constant dialog.
John Flaherty:The responsorial Psalm is a dialog. Yeah. Right? But oftentimes, psalmists don't trust that the assembly is going to answer. So, in effect, what we say as music ministers is, No, don't answer.
John Flaherty:I'll answer for you, which is when the psalmist repeats the response again rather than being in dialogue with the assembly. Right?
Father John:Right.
John Flaherty:So I mean, those are the levels of PvP that I look at. I look at the lectionary where it says the word of the Lord at the end of the first and second readings, right? I'm thinking, well, why is that W not capitalized? And you do some studying about that and you realize that we're told that the word is alive, the word is active, and once it's proclaimed, the people of God are the word that lives within the word, right? Yeah.
John Flaherty:So when the lector says you know, looks at the assembly and says the word of the Lord, the lector is telling us who we are. Right? Yeah. And so our response is, well, thank you, God. Or thanks, you know.
John Flaherty:Right. So anyway, all of those kinds of things. There are a million of things in our ritual that mean so much that just get lost. What I love again about what you've created here, John, it's just a moment to slow down, to be compassionate and patient and gentle with ourselves, to maybe open ourselves to listen again, not to talk, but to listen. Right?
Father John:Right. Right. Well, you're first off, you're giving a great plug for what we're hoping to do here with CALD. And and it's so great because I know that you know Kathy so well from all these years of of when Paul was a student of yours. And, like, you know, I guess what I'm thinking of too, John, is what keeps you going?
Father John:What keeps you at this? Where have you seen the fruit of your work in such a way that is a constant affirmation that you have been called to this? I mean, because you're you've been at this, like, as you began for a long time in this in this current iteration over thirty years or at least almost thirty years at LMU, but, I mean, but longer than that with just doing liturgical music. You know, like, the question I often ask, and I was asking this to some grade school students, you know, like or grade school teachers, I mean, you know, like, why do you stay? Why do you stay doing this?
Father John:You know? We all have to ask ourselves, like, so why do you stay?
John Flaherty:I always say that our job is to work ourselves out of a job. Right? And the reality is, is that I don't know if we'll ever be able to do it. But, you know, to work ourselves into a place of obscurity is the goal, right? So that the people that we teach can then teach others who can then teach others who can and when I say teach, what I mean by that is love others into who they are.
John Flaherty:It's not just the mechanics of teaching. I derive no greater joy, John, and this is the truth and I've said it for years. I love it when we put people in places doing what we do. And I rejoice when I see them doing it better than we do it. Yeah.
John Flaherty:I just think that that's the heart at the heart of what it is to mentor other people. And early on, I don't think I was perfect at it. Mean, I said some things to a young musician who grew up with me and it hurt him and we didn't speak for a few years, but I kept at it, and I kept at it. And I said, I was wrong. I was what I said to you had more to do with what I wanted rather than what God was calling you to.
John Flaherty:And since then, you know, he's you know, he's in his 40s now, but he's a great friend. He went off and did a doctorate in theology. And one of the great joys now is I call him and I say, because I taught him, I mentored him, we had that little falling out. It wasn't major, but it was a little falling out. I taught him, I mentored him, he would call me for advice, he'd call me for information.
John Flaherty:And I think it's really wonderful when you can get to that place where you call people that you've taught you say, Okay, so I'm reading this here. What do you read here? I mean, how do you interpret this? And I think when the student becomes the master of a concept and I don't know if student and master is the right dichotomy or the right descriptive. But when those you've taught so much, you poured as much as you can into them when they do what we do and do it better than we do it.
John Flaherty:And then in turn, you can see the people that they're teaching to do what we do. I think that's the greatest joy. That's what keeps me going.
Father John:That is a great joy. And I've experienced that for myself as well in close to twenty five years of teaching. I definitely call upon former students now for advice on lots of different things because they you know, you we can only study so much, but when you have all these different people and who've you've played a role in in teaching, they're studying all these other different things that you'll never be able to ever get close to knowing. And it's just amazing to have that. I think there is I remember Alan Ginsberg would always quote this Buddhist type of saying that, you know, if the student does not become smarter than the teacher, the teacher has failed.
Father John:Something along those lines. Yeah. It's like that. I I have to get the exact but it but there's so much truth to that in its own way. You know?
Father John:John, what a great discussion this has been. I mean, so so now, I mean, we've talked a lot a little bit about what we're gonna be planning here at LMU. So it's gonna be Saturday, September 20. Really looking forward to coming down there. Kathy and I are really really excited to to meet you.
John Flaherty:Well, first for me to meet you in person to to hopefully meet some of their incredible creative musicians, the surgical ministers in the archdiocese of Los Angeles. What expecting are for that from your perspective? Like what are you hoping, I should say, is going to emerge from that? Or who you hope is going to be there?
John Flaherty:You know, okay, what I hope to, you know, is, I hope it's a day of, you know, affirmation and, you know, we use that term, Ignatian spirituality, cura personalis, the care of the whole person. And again, I mean, to go back to what you and Kathy have conceptualized and what you've developed is, musicians, we focus so much on the doing, the mechanics of what we do. And it's easy to forget that you're in the midst of prayer and so not to leave during the homily, right? But to immerse yourself in the prayer. And so I hope several veteran, well and young and people who have been doing this come and get their tank filled up.
John Flaherty:Be remembered to who they are and to whom they belong and be remembered, you know, have that experience of remembering that first time that they fell in love with this. Right?
Father John:Yeah. Yeah. And we all need that. And I know for Kathy and I even coming and helping to be a part of facilitating the retreat itself, we are always very much fed. We always say that our cohorts are the content or the or the people who show up really are the content of the retreat.
Father John:It's not really content that we are disseminating. But if anything, hopefully, we can facilitate a space where the gift of who each person is will emerge, and we can all be able to affirm our individual calls. Yeah. So thanks so much, John, for this time. This has been really a great time to be able to spend with you and unpacking some things.
Father John:And, like I said, we're gonna see each other in a in in just over a month, well, from the time of this recording. So September at LMU, there is an event for anyone who's, needs some refreshment from liturgical ministry. We can maybe put it that way and to be able to reaffirm how you've been called. So we hope to see you there. If you're in the Los Angeles area, feel free to register at our website.
Father John:So thank you so much. More details, of course, in the show notes. John, thank you so much. Any final words that you want to to give to us today?
John Flaherty:No, John, it's just been a great pleasure to be with you. I'm looking forward to seeing Kathy again. Yeah. And I just love the way that we're all connected. It's really a small Catholic world when you really start talking to people.
John Flaherty:So I just love the way that we're all connected.
Father John:Amen. Let's affirm that connection in person in a very short time. We'll see you soon.
John Flaherty:Thank right, my blessings. Thank you.
Father John:Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Attentive Heart Podcast. We hope that you were able to find it helpful in your spiritual journey and practice. This podcast is produced in collaboration with Sunday to Sunday Productions and The Witness Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please subscribe and share it
Father John:with friends. To make healing through kindness. Hold on to love. Hold on to love where hope flowing. Hold on to love.
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