Exploring the Third Space with Guest Paul Fahey
Welcome to the Attentive Heart podcast where we explore how an integration of mind, body, and spirit make us whole and enable us to become more compassionate to ourselves and to others. I'm your host, John Grubwich, and today my guest is Paul. So, Paul, I'm gonna pitch it to you right away. Why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are, your background, and what occupies most of your time these days?
Guest Paul Fahey:John, thanks a lot. Yeah. I'm I'm Paul Fahey. I'm well, my current career is as a professional counselor out in Michigan where, yeah, I live with my wife. Her and I have five kids.
Guest Paul Fahey:Previous to working as a counselor, which was a second career for me, I worked for eight years full time as a director of religious ed at a small town in a Catholic parish. And my professional work now as a counselor and then extended from that is focused on both working with people who have been harmed in the church, helping them navigate spiritual abuse and religious trauma, and then also creating creating resources and spaces for both regular Catholics as well as church leaders to be able to better understand spiritual abuse and abusive dynamics in the church in order to, first of all, protect themselves, but then also safeguard their communities they're responsible for against abusive power within the church.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. Such important work, something I'm very personally passionate and invested in as well. And I know a lot about your story of how you got to this point, but I just was hoping you can maybe retell it again. Where did you start off, let's just say, in your journey with church, and then how did you get to this place where you are now where you have a very, let's just say a loving criticism of how things are done institutionally in the church. And I feel like that's something that resonates with a lot of people who whether they like to call themselves spiritual but not religious, or people who just kind of checked out from any form of institutional religion, I think that you're you're tapping into a group of people who need to be heard.
Host Fr John Gribowich:And I'm just kind of curious as to what was the journey that got you from say maybe more of a high church sense to kind of more of a you know in the weeds, in the trenches type of feel. I don't know if that if that kind of defines it well, but how about you just kind of maybe unpack that a little bit?
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. Yeah. I just had a conversation yesterday with someone actually, and the word they used after listening to my podcast was they said, you have a nuanced understanding of Catholicism. And I'm like, okay. Okay.
Guest Paul Fahey:I'll learn that.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Go with that. Yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. I was that that question, what what has been my relationship with the church? I was raised Catholic. And I yeah. I think, like, growing up, we went to mass every Sunday.
Guest Paul Fahey:That was something important. My my family was also a mix of there were mixed values, but there was kind of a coherent thread in the the values within my family's Catholicism. My parents were both very involved in in the pro life movement and then doing local running local support groups for for pregnant women. My dad was involved in the labor movement. My dad did has been doing prison ministry longer than I've been alive.
Guest Paul Fahey:Like, a real sense of, like, social justice Mhmm. Is infused in Catholicism. The the the figures that that my dad really that I remember him gravitating to are like Oscar Romero, Maxine Colby Mhmm. The the these types of figures in the church. Yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:Dorothy Day is another one. Yep. So, like, that's always been a part of my understanding of the faith. And then by then to high school, I I went on well, went on a youth conference, a Steubenville youth conference, and had a really profound encounter with the Lord through the sacraments. Perfect.
Guest Paul Fahey:Most most directly through the adoration and then the sacrament of confession. And I've unpacked that experience quite a bit. It was both incredibly liberating, but it also wasn't sufficient. It didn't give me the tools to continue to to live within the freedom that Christ had to offer me. Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:And through college and into my young adulthood, I was very shaped by a you could call it a culture war Catholicism. You could call it a fundamentalist Catholicism. Mhmm. But one that was very, very sure that it had the answers to everything, that saw the outside culture as something to be frightened of and fought against. This is.
Guest Paul Fahey:It saw there's just a deep sense of suspicion towards the values of the outside and a sense of wanting to ostracize those in the in group who expressed the values of the outside. Right? You were marginalized if you didn't toe the line with what the group But I experienced Christ in that space and continued to experience Christ in that space in some real ways. And only years down the road after I got a theology degree, I've been working in the church for several years, been married for many years, had
Host Fr John Gribowich:four
Guest Paul Fahey:kids at that point, where I reached like where I reached the limitation of my capacity to follow that contrived norm. And began and this was all intermingled. It became became a process of you could use the word deconstruction. It was never isn't a deconstruction from Catholicism, but a deconstruction from this more fundamentalist Catholicism that I had thought was normative Catholicism.
Host Fr John Gribowich:And if you don't mind interrupting, how would you define fundamental Catholicism? Because I think that's something that's flowed around, but what would be the components of that, at least from your experience?
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. So I think two two key components when talking about any type of religious fundamentalism. One is a very strong in group, out group dynamic. Mhmm. So again, that point of seeing seeing those outside, even Catholics who are outside our norm as enemies or people to be afraid of.
Guest Paul Fahey:Mhmm. And the other component is a rigid, literal there's some more nuance I wanna add, understanding of sacred texts. So that could be you know, it's easier to think of sometimes of, like, evangelical fundamentalism, and that's like, you know, a solo scripture, a literal reading of scripture, seven day creation, etcetera. Mhmm. Within Catholicism, though, that comes out as more of a either, like like proof texting, like pre Vatican two documents and things like that.
Guest Paul Fahey:But it also comes out as a denial of the fact that the church's teaching develops.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:So so there's a sense of, like, really, really fixed teaching rather than understanding that the church herself grows in her knowledge of God and her knowledge of the world. So that more rigid understanding of spiritual authority and revelation mixed with the in group out group, I would say those those would be like the cornerstones of a fundamentalist Catholicism.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Right. Right. Okay. Good. And and also, I know that you're kinda doing your your story, but like my my experience too is like all those things kind of also form like a litmus test.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Like to see like exactly where you are. And then especially in areas of morality, like that's where it becomes very sexual morality is even more specific. Like that that's the the key way of understanding if you're in or you're out.
Guest Paul Fahey:And and the litmus test becomes like, at least in my experience, ever more and more strict or restrictive. Right?
Host Fr John Gribowich:It is.
Guest Paul Fahey:Where it isn't just whether or not you ascend to the church's teaching, say in areas of sexual morality, but still wrestle with it, well, no, that's not good enough. You have to like assent to it and love it, and wholeheartedly be an apologist for it. Right. Right. It's not just that you live your life in accord with the church's teaching, it's that if you I mean, I can speak personally, mention anything positive about someone, a figure like father James Martin, for example.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:Where just even saying anything positive about him makes me viewed with suspicion.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Right.
Guest Paul Fahey:Right. Because he's seen as like so far beyond the pale Right. From this fundamentalist in group dynamic.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Okay. So let's just get back on here.
Host Fr John Gribowich:So so how did you emerge from that? Like Yeah. Or how did you evolve from that?
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. There were there were a few things that converged all within a couple of years. One was, frankly, one was political, and that was seeing I've been super involved in the pro life movement for a long time as a young adult. And again, this sense of social justice was was really important to me. The sense of being principled and having integrity and being a witness to the political environment.
Guest Paul Fahey:And then I saw, you know, in 2015, figures who I had deeply respected and looked up to as mentors cave on their integrity to the principles that they taught me. This is. And that was so jarring.
Host Fr John Gribowich:This is.
Guest Paul Fahey:There was that aspect. There was also an aspect of Pope Francis. During his year of mercy, read his his during the year of mercy, he announced. I read his book, The Name of God Is Mercy.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Right. Script book.
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. And I left that book. I read it like three times that year. Left that book and said to myself, that I wanna believe in the God that Pope Francis believes in. Yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. Because I recognized that I didn't at that point.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:But I found his God way more compelling
Host Fr John Gribowich:than
Guest Paul Fahey:the God I was still wrestling with. And then I I came to the to the limit of my own freedom and my own capacity to follow the the norms of this version of Catholicism that I was in. And in having reached that limit, I found myself being marginalized or held with suspicion within that group. So there was external stuff going on, there was internal stuff going on, and all of this led to a questioning of everything. Honestly, so much of it going back to the catechism to be like, well, what does the church actually teach about this versus what I've been told through my whole, like, young adult life.
Guest Paul Fahey:I discovered Catholic social teaching and just fell profoundly in love with the church's understanding of the human person and solidarity and freedom and conscience. And yeah. So all of that, 2015, '20 '16, '20 '17, that was the beginning of this process that has only only continued. And it is I know, like Richard Rohr, like, he talks about deconstruction to then experience reconstruction. Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:And my experience wasn't quite that linear. It was more like deconstruction and reconstruction at the same time happening. Sure. And it's, in many ways, still happening at this point.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. Yeah. No. That's all good, I can relate to that on so many different levels. Let's get into about how you were able to juggle all that within the capacity of representing the church.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Because you were working at a parish, and was a lot of this happening as you were, you know, being an official Catholic representative, so to speak? You know, I mean, as a priest, know that there's a lot of pressure put on us to make sure that we become the right spokesperson for all things Catholic, and if you are someone who's maybe really wrestling with something at times, that's not really looked upon as of of value. Other times, it's looked upon with great value, I I've I've realized that too. But, like, what was that like for you?
Guest Paul Fahey:Oh, man. That's a great question. I don't know. I think there were different aspects of that experience. So one was, as a catechist, I had a really strong sense of so the word catechesis means to to echo down.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:Specifically, to to to echo down a message that isn't mine.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:And that responsibility felt very present for me, and still does when I'm in acting in the role of a catechist, that my job is to present the gospel of Jesus Christ and the teaching of the Catholic church, and not the opinions of Paul Fahey. I present it in an embodied way through my experience, through my own understanding, but that it's not my message. It's someone else's message. And even if I don't fully agree with that, different aspects of that message, that that's for me to work out with the Lord, and in my own spaces, it's not for me to work out in people that I have a position of authority over. That sense.
Guest Paul Fahey:So that sense was very strong, that like, me working out my stuff wasn't wasn't happening when I was in a a position of authority over others. So there was that aspect. But there was also an aspect of, as I was rediscovering, or maybe discovering for the first time what the church actually taught about things, I was surprised to get pushback. So, like, one example comes to mind during that election year, I gave a presentation about The US Bishop's voting document, forming consciences for faithful citizenship.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:Which, know, believe it or not, doesn't say that if you vote for a Democrat, that's a mortal sin. Know? It presents something much more nuanced and much more grounded in church church's understanding of conscience. I have my personal agreements and disagreements with that document, but in this talk, I presented what was in the document from the bishops. And there was a lot of pushback from that.
Guest Paul Fahey:There was people who expressed concern about my role as a catechist at the parish presenting that, because it went against what everyone thought was orthodoxy. Ruth. Because of just just because of the specific Catholic culture I was in. Sure. So there was that aspect, but there was also within the ecclesial environment I was in when I mean, I fell in love with Pope Francis very quickly after reading the name of God has mercy, so I started soaking up all of his teaching.
Guest Paul Fahey:And I would start presenting Catholicism in line with Francis' teaching and received significant pushback from that, that being viewed personally with suspicion, and then that what I was saying being viewed with suspicion. Even though I'm like, look, like, I'm just presenting the text. Here's the text. And it wasn't as much disagreement with me as it was with the text itself. But I've yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:I found my real hole in the line of like, don't you see this beautiful, compelling thing that Francis is saying that undermines this rigid Catholicism that we're all in? But then a lot of folks were like, but I prefer the rigid Catholicism. Right. And found myself in that space. So yeah, there was there was a lot to navigate.
Guest Paul Fahey:I can't say that I always navigated it well, but it was something that I chose to navigate intentionally as someone who worked for the church and represented the church.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. I mean, now I'm sure that did you feel that was a little bit different when you were doing something maybe more one on one pastoral? I mean, I understand in the context of a teacher, a catechist, you have to kind of be able to fairly represent and embody the teachings of the church. I think when you're walking with someone one on one and you're hearing more of their own story, it's at that point that you're like, okay, well how does how does the rule become really a measure rather than essentially an idol? Where it's like at all costs, this is what needs to be done in this situation.
Host Fr John Gribowich:And you know, it's a very delicate type of thing to do. I mean, it's sometimes formalized as called being called the internal form, but I mean, like, I like to just think it's just really walking with someone, but more importantly really being attentive to how God is already working in their life. Not how's God not working in their life or what's not right, but like how's God already working in their life. That that that profound attentiveness. So maybe we could talk a little bit about that.
Host Fr John Gribowich:I mean, as you can tell, I'm kind of like taking it to the whole idea of the attentive heart right right away. But like, what what have you found in your maybe more one on one experiences, whether working in a church environment or now, of course, working more in a counseling environment? What what is the what do those one on one stories reveal to you?
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. I think years ago, when I worked in the church, I did not have an understanding of how the Holy Spirit worked in people's lives and hearts. Did not have an understanding of conscience Mhmm. Adequate to work with people in that way. I had an understanding of doctrine, and I had an understanding of apologetics.
Guest Paul Fahey:So looking back, there was probably a lot of fumbling through those one on one conversations. What I found over the past five years, and then very much so in the past few years of my work as a counselor, is being able to sit with people in in attention, in the contradiction.
Host Fr John Gribowich:That's And just be able
Guest Paul Fahey:to hold that contradiction with them, where it's like, hey, it seems like you believe this thing to be good and true, and it seems like you're behaving this way. That's it. Can we just can we hold both of those things?
Host Fr John Gribowich:That's it.
Guest Paul Fahey:And like, well, what do you want to do with that? What is the what is the Lord telling you he wants to do with that? And I I feel so much so comfortable in that space now, but that but that's a muscle that has been developed. They said only only in the past few years. But it puts so much I I realized, like, in the moment right now, I'm realizing how much fear I had in some of those pastoral conversations because I felt the pressure of I need to represent what's true, and I can't water that down in any way.
Guest Paul Fahey:Right. But I also want to meet this person in front of me exactly where they're at. And I I don't know if that's always possible, but I certainly felt that fear and and and that pressure. Whereas now I feel real detachment from another person's decisions and another person's relationship with God. That's it.
Guest Paul Fahey:God will work in this person's heart the way that God wants to work in this person's heart and in God's timeline. My role is if it's and it's different in a therapy role than in than a catechetical role. In a catechetical role, my role is to present the kerygma, the good news, the gospel, the church's teaching, and to just put it on the table in front of the person and let them explore it in their time frame and in the way they want to answer their questions and to be present with them in their feelings of suffering and contradiction intention, and to hopefully help remove obstacles for them to more clearly hear the voice of the Lord in their own heart. Within a counseling setting, my role is much less as teacher and more to reflect a person back to themselves so that they can see with more clearly what they actually want, where they actually have freedom where they didn't realize they had freedom. Very fair.
Guest Paul Fahey:Or where their freedom's restricted, where they thought they did have freedom and felt a responsibility for things that were actually outside of their control. And in reflecting someone back to themselves, that's even a more hands off position. But in when someone's able to grow in that self understanding, they're able to grow in that freedom. And and as a Catholic, that to me, that freedom is like, we are made by God for God.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Totally.
Guest Paul Fahey:Our whole being is oriented to what is good and true and beautiful. And if we're in the right space, if we're in the right environment, like, our conscience is going to speak up. Mhmm. There's obstacles to that. There's things that make that difficult.
Guest Paul Fahey:But if I can help clear away those things so someone can hear as a Catholic, I very much say the voice of the Lord in their own heart, telling them what they actually already want. Yeah. That's it is such a privileged role to have to be in that space. But like I said, there's much more detachment that I have now from the outcomes, and that has given me so much more freedom within that role, whereas in the past, yeah, I felt a lot more fear.
Jesse Manibusan:Hi. I'm Frank Connelly from Sunday to Sunday productions. If you're enjoying this podcast, I would like to invite you to become a part of the community, where father John and the CALD curriculum team are creating weekly newsletters, live and virtual workshops, events, courses, and retreats. Joining is simple. Just visit preachingjourney.com.
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Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. And and so detached. I mean, I I would speak to myself here. So detached that you're you're totally okay if this person doesn't become, let's just say, a card carrying Catholic or that they fully just are in love with all the teachings of the church as they currently are understood or articulated. I mean, I I work in an environment which is at a Catholic school, but most of the people that I encounter don't really have a relationship with the church.
Host Fr John Gribowich:I do think everyone I encounter has a relationship with God, whether they even realize it or not. So that's far more fascinating to me than how things line up with their lifestyle in relationship to the church. I mean, do I believe that the church can offer a blueprint for good living? Well, of course I do. I mean, because it's it's worked and served me very well in lots of ways.
Host Fr John Gribowich:But I also do think that everyone's very wounded, and they're walking around with certain types of hurts that none of us are aware of. And and I think that the only way that God works in their life is healing those hurts in a very unique way that go far beyond any of the prescriptions of the church. Like, don't think that the prescriptions of the church necessarily are going to be the ready made solution, as much as many people would like to think that they could be. I just believe in a God that, let's just say, is bigger than that. Not because it's a belittling of what has been revealed and become part of how the church understands herself, but because, know, God wants to show his love by any means necessary rather than saying you have to do these things and then voila, it will click.
Host Fr John Gribowich:I have been one who also was very much taken by social justice early on, also Stephenville Conference and the Charismatic Renewal and all that, and incredible times in Eucharist's adoration and confession. Yet, looking back now, those were beginnings, not end points for me on this journey. And they still have a very important role in serving as that portal into the reality of an incarnational sacramental God that is showing up in every place both inside and outside of the church as far as I'm concerned. And most especially showing itself up in the wounds of other people. To me, that's the crucified Christ right there.
Host Fr John Gribowich:And you spend a lot of time with people in that space. So what's that like for you to encounter Christ in those moments? And even if you wanna share any particular stories, because a lot of times, you know, in the regards of of a lot of the work that we do with Sunday to Sunday and the called program, we're always focusing on how to cultivate better preaching. But I find out that some of the best preachers are those who are in the midst of their darkness and struggle, and start to reveal how God's healing, mercy, and love, and compassion work in, just say, very unconventional ways. And that becomes a very compelling story, which to me is proclaiming the good news.
Host Fr John Gribowich:So does that resonate with you, or do you have any examples or anything that you would be able to share based on what you're doing? Because you're doing really hard work. I mean, and I I don't mean like it's, know, laborious work. I'm sure it's that too. But it's just having to show up.
Host Fr John Gribowich:That's difficult. And having to be open to listening to lots of different painful stories.
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. I think that there is yeah. There's several things that come to mind. My desire for the people I work with, for anyone, is to experience the freedom of relationship with Christ. Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:To experience the direction of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:To live a sacramental life in the the broadest sense of what that means. To see God in all of their material interactions. And to there's a line from Ferteli Tutti, Pope Francis encyclical, like, to live a life that is has the flavor of the gospel. That's what he says. That's it.
Guest Paul Fahey:A way of life marked by the flavor of the gospel. I love that. That's what I want for everybody.
Host Fr John Gribowich:That's it.
Guest Paul Fahey:But what I don't have anymore is a possessiveness over that outcome. That's it. Where, like, I have a detachment from that outcome. No sense of coercion, no sense of possessiveness, no sense of I need to get this person from a to b to c. Yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:I see that as the Lord's work. And that has given me a capacity to step back, like I talked about. But in that stepping back, then also a freedom to I deeply and truly believe in Matthew 25 when when Jesus talks about the final judgment and he identifies himself with the poor and the hungry and the naked and the imprisoned and the foreigner Mhmm. That he actually means that. That's it.
Guest Paul Fahey:That I can encounter Christ in the poor and the marginalized. And the the the church has some beautiful teachings where it's expounded that, and it's talked about how it's not just the materially poor. It is anyone who is marginalized, anyone who's been oppressed by the powerful. And that's where our wounds come from. Like, whether the powerful is a political leader or whether the powerful is an abusive or neglectful parent, That is sacred space.
Guest Paul Fahey:That is where Christ is. That is it. And I can show up, and in my non possessive disposition and that detachment that's engaged, that's attuned, that's attentive, that's present, but I also encounter Christ in these persons, in in in their stories, because that's where I believe Christ is present. A good friend and colleague of mine, she talks about has offered a lot of reflection for me on Christ's glorified wounds. How in John's gospel after the resurrection when he shows up in the upper room, He shows up for Thomas, and he has wounds in his hands and his side.
Guest Paul Fahey:He didn't have to have those wounds. His body at that point was impervious to space and time and harm. Okay. He chose to have those wounds so that others could see that their wounds have a place, that Christ is not afraid of those wounds, and that Christ is in solidarity in a radical way with those wounds. And he's identified by his wounds.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:It's it's it's become these types of conversations with others are sacramental in a very real and deep sense of that word.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. I think it's interesting just to to to riff off that story of, say, the wounds of Christ in the in the resurrection, the post resurrection. You know, it's interesting that Thomas makes that statement. He's like, unless I see the wounds, I won't believe. It's almost as if he throws onto God, it's like, the God that I believe in is the one who has suffered and whose suffering remains in a in a way, you know, or the effects of that suffering remain.
Host Fr John Gribowich:It's interesting. It's because it's like we hear that story so many times that maybe we just gloss over that, where it's like if if the body rose from the dead, we maybe we would assume there'd be no wounds. Right? But Thomas was expecting there to be wounds. And I think that that's a kind of a very powerful thing for all of us, like, when we're in the midst of our moments of despair, in the midst of our own suffering, our own hurts, how much do we expect God to also be wounded with us?
Host Fr John Gribowich:You know, to not necessarily feel like this is a God who has it all together and therefore we just have to kind of just work our way up to someone who's so perfect. But to be able to have this kind of almost, that we're almost hardwired to to want to have a god who gets down and dirty with us, so to speak. I think that that's a lot of the when you talk about the type of god that Pope Francis believes in, like that that's what was revealed in so much of of of his own teaching. Now, I know that like you were very much in what was kind of loosely called the Pope Francis generation. And your podcast it was called that, right?
Host Fr John Gribowich:Was that right?
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah, so Yeah, the first first one was, yeah.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah, the fir Yeah, and that's when I first really heard about you, and learned about what you were doing. And then things changed, and and now you have it into this this whole sense of being in the third space. And how do we just talk about that? Because like, what happened there? I mean, clearly, both you and I were very much affected by the teachings of Pope Francis, and we thought that this was something very different happening here.
Host Fr John Gribowich:I mean, ever ancient, ever new. Right? I mean, there wasn't anything that was necessarily being changed, but it was just a window into God that maybe we just never considered. And it wasn't like it didn't exist in previous popes or other Catholics, it it just seemed to be more front and center. So what tell me about the evolution of all that for you because clearly, you ended up having some, let's just how would you say it?
Host Fr John Gribowich:Concerns about Pope Francis. So how about we just talk about that?
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. I've said other places, and I and I believe it's true. I don't know if I'd still be Catholic if it weren't for Pope Francis. Like, that's how crucial his teaching was for me in this process
Jesse Manibusan:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:Of deconstruction and reconstruction. The vision of God, the character of God that he presented was so profound and so secure for What What What happened was I experienced real abusive power as an employee of the church. And after, I left my job at at the parish where I worked at, both from a pastor with a lot of narcissistic behaviors and from a bishop and a diocese and a system that prioritized those in positions of power Perfect. Even when they knew that the that the pastor in power was in the wrong, even when they told me that was the case. And that experience of betrayal from the church and from leaders within the church opened my heart to be able to hear for the first time, in in a lot of ways for the first time, the story of stories of others who had been harmed and betrayed Perfect.
Guest Paul Fahey:By the church. Mhmm. And their stories were so I mean, caused a real process of conversion in me. Perfect. They were so convicting and so deeply truthful.
Guest Paul Fahey:Perfect. And I found myself growing more and more uncomfortable over the course of a year or two, so strongly associating with a particular leader within the church and finding myself associating more and more, seeing Christ and experiencing Christ more and more in the persons and voices and stories of those who have been marginalized by the church. Perfect. And I found my own conscience moving to where if I'm if I truly want to give a preferential option for the marginalized and the vulnerable in the church, which I do, which I believe, then I want to associate more with them than with any particular cleric or leader, even Pope Francis.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:Also, hearing hearing the stories of survivors opened me up to some of Francis' real faults in some of the decisions that he made.
Host Fr John Gribowich:And I think
Guest Paul Fahey:And not in his teaching. I don't I I don't believe in his teaching, but in in some of his governing decisions. Some I think real clericalism, real prioritizing the powerful over the vulnerable, a real failure to follow his own teaching, a failure to follow what he taught me. Mhmm. And, yeah, that caused me to shift and in wanting to identify more with the vulnerable and marginal ones, because that's where I was and still in seeing Christ more clearly.
Guest Paul Fahey:I changed the name of my podcast, The Third Space. And that came from a conversation with my same friend and mentor, who I mentioned before, Monica Pope. I was talking with her, and I was like, people have been harmed in the church so often. When they share their story, they're either confronted by voices within the church who want to bypass their harm and defend the church. Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:Or people who may be on the outskirts of of Catholicism or have left Catholicism or Christianity altogether, and they're like, well, why do you still stay at all if all this harm has happened? Yeah. And Monica said to me, there needs to be a third space
Host Fr John Gribowich:A third.
Guest Paul Fahey:Where both the harm that that person has experienced can be named and claimed as true.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Uh-huh.
Guest Paul Fahey:And the good that they've experienced in the in the church can also be held onto as as true. And that deeply resonated with me. So so that's where that came from. My relationship with Francis continues to be complicated, but in a weird way. I mean, I have mourned his death more than I expected to.
Guest Paul Fahey:Nice. But I found myself even a few days after his death, saying publicly, and I believe this, that I don't think he should be canonized for a few generations, for a few decades, at least until the church can be honest about the good and the bad of his pontificate. And at the same time, I believe he's with God. I believe he's a saint.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Of course.
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. So I found myself in the in the within the few days after he died in prayer, like, realizing that I had a level of access to him after his death that I didn't before, and was able to express my own anger and grief about the decisions he made that I believed to be harmful. Was it? And but then also to ask for his support in in the work I'm engaging in and trying to do to help make the church safer, to help make the church follow her her teaching and human dignity more. So, yeah, I I still have a complicated relationship with Francis.
Guest Paul Fahey:But, yeah, I I still don't believe I I would be Catholic if it wasn't for him. Yeah. No. I I I hear
Host Fr John Gribowich:what you're saying. I think as you were saying earlier about that detachment from people's decisions and where they are with God, found that there's a certain type of detachment I've had to have with the papacy in general. I think that, you know, both of us came of age, I know that we're probably ten years apart, but both of us came of age where it was like the the j p two generation was like the place to be. And like all the stuff coming out from j p two was just like amazing, and so like made you so proud to be Catholic, and and you just want everyone to eat this all up. You know?
Host Fr John Gribowich:And I just think there's something a little bit off with putting all of this rock star type of papacy as a way to kind of understand one's relationship with the church and of course with God. And it's it's not taking away from the importance of the papacy or just the unique significance of each pope and what they bring to the table, so to speak. But I just think that like to let go of this I mean, for example, Pope Leo, I'm from all accounts, I feel pretty excited about the guy. I mean, it's I'm happy he's the pope. I I have no but I also found myself like, I'm not like watching every single thing he does and reading every single thing that that that's that's set from the Vatican.
Host Fr John Gribowich:It's it's not because I'm not necessarily interested. It's just not a priority anymore. Like, I don't need to have the pope representing exactly who God means to me or what the church means to me. It's just not not needed. I think at at the best, the pope serves as a unifying presence to for have all people to kind of have some type of relationship with and and identity with the church through a person because I think that's a very incarnational dimension of the faith.
Host Fr John Gribowich:But it just doesn't seem to be like, I'm not gonna think that, like, church issues or abuses in the church are gonna be solved solely by the pope. I just don't really feel that way. Because I feel like the chances of being let down are probably greater than anything. You know? So I mean, it's just like, well, that's not really the place to go.
Host Fr John Gribowich:And because I think that in our society, we all are looking for some type of savior. We all want someone to kinda get us out of the place that we're in and bring us into the promised land. And people do that with the pope. But I I find that, like, is there something more significant happening in the day to day, in in the daily grind, so to speak, with people that can actually just completely open your eyes to the presence of God in ways that say the Pope in Rome can't. I mean, I I know that there may be he'll play a different role within our lives, but like, I am just so taken by the, like, just the the significance of how God works and save the lives of my students.
Host Fr John Gribowich:I mean, I'm just like, well, I I can't really sit back and just be thinking like, oh I'm here to kind of make sure that they get in line better because I I they don't you know believe in in the church's teaching on ABC. I I it's not like I don't feel like that's important, but it just doesn't seem to be the priority. And I know that some people may find that to be, I don't know, problematic, especially because high school students are informative years and you're trying your best to kinda steer them in the right direction. And it's not like I don't believe in that, but I do believe that the only way that that really happens with any merit is when I give some form of witness of how God's been working in my own life to be able to kind of offer something path forward for anyone who may be in a place that's not ideal. So what's that been like for you?
Host Fr John Gribowich:What's the power of witness been like for you in your own life? In in all the stuff you share with us, like, how does that resonate with the people who tune into your podcast, or from the many people who reach out to you?
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. I think that's interesting. You talking about your under like, your relationship with the the pope and how that's changed. Mine is different. Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:And because of because of the betrayals that I have experienced, I trust what the pope has to say more than my own bishop, more than my own pastor. So I'm the person who every day is like, man, what's what's the pope's Wednesday catechesis gonna be? Because that's where I I feel I can trust that teacher. I'm gonna read the Pope's Sunday homily instead of listening to my pastor's homily because I can trust that source more.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm not telling No.
Host Fr John Gribowich:No. It's good. That's that's where that's exactly what you need, and I I hear I hear you.
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. But at the same time, I have a very real, very real encounters with God and relationship with God and quiet prayer, and very real encounters with God in these conversations and encounters with others. Yeah. I use the word privilege. Like, it is privileged.
Guest Paul Fahey:Like, I'm so privileged to have these conversations with others, to be able to be invited to hold space for their stories in their reality. God is is is very present in that. The power of witness. I see the the power of witness in in my own podcast
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:And some of the other work that I do as showing up with a genuineness of I feel a level of gray and tension and conflict in my relationship with the church. And I want to give up. That's the space where I exist. That's that's how being a follower of Christ looks like for me right now, is in is in that space of tension. And if I can just talk about that space of tension, talk about my own experience in that tension Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:I see that, and I've heard that from so many people that that gives others permission to be okay, that that's where they're at. Yeah. That actually there is space in the church for them, even if they felt this betrayal, even if they don't trust some of their leaders, even if they don't trust some of the teachings. There's still space for them, because there's space for me. Yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:I had a conversation with someone who is no longer Catholic, and who shared being intrigued and gravitating towards my podcast because I was presenting he's it's the guy who said nuanced Catholicism rather than the fundamentalist Catholicism that they were raised in. And the fact that I had these nuances and these disagreements and these feelings about the church and was still Catholic, that gave him a sense of freedom or acceptedness in some way. That's a space that I want to hold for people. That, to me, that's the the power of my witness that I have.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. What ideally would you like to see happen, let's say, within the context of of Christian communities, the institutional church, your local parish? Like like, what do you think would be a helpful thing right now to we we all know the the issues in the church. We all know maybe why people aren't going to church or why they checked out. Like, what what would you see to be the thing right now that'd be so helpful?
Host Fr John Gribowich:Whether from what you can just personally do, what someone listening to this podcast can do, up to what a bishop or pope could do? And it's a big big big question, but you know. Yeah. Let's solve all these problems right now, right now.
Guest Paul Fahey:I think the most important thing is to everyone, and any level of the church to pray for more grace to believe that God is as good as he says that he is.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Nice.
Guest Paul Fahey:From that place, I'm no longer afraid.
Host Fr John Gribowich:This is.
Guest Paul Fahey:And if I'm not afraid, then I'm not possessive. I'm not coercive of others. That's right. Because I trust that God is good, and that he desires their good more than I do, and that God will find a way in God's time. It allows me to live in freedom.
Guest Paul Fahey:It allows me to be able to be vulnerable with the Lord in deeper and deeper ways. Mhmm. It allows me to, in that vulnerability, allow him to convict me, to convert me, to transform me more and more. It allows me it it allows me to let him show me where I need to take responsibility and repent, and show me where I can rest and just receive. But I can only have that vulnerability if I first trust that he's good.
Guest Paul Fahey:Because only at that point can I be safe? Yeah. So to me, like, that's that's that's the most important thing. The Catechism says that says that the there's a marvelous passage. It's talking about the first sin in Genesis, and it says that the form of that first sin was that the man and the woman first doubted God's goodness and then grasped it in disobedience.
Guest Paul Fahey:And then it says, every subsequent sin has that exact same form.
Host Fr John Gribowich:It is.
Guest Paul Fahey:It's the doubting of God's goodness and his care for me that comes first. And if I doubt that, then I grasp. And I coerce, and I control, and I possess.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:If I actually believe that God is good, that genuinely changes my whole life.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. I mean, I so hear you Paul. I mean, and so many of us, and I I say us because I'll put myself into it, we still have this doubt that things aren't going to really work out for our good because we somehow think that we're going to get punished because of our poor choices and we just kind of then end up in a place where there's no way out. I mean, I can't tell you how many people I encounter who will always, you know, pour out their heart and their soul to me and then they'll be like, ask me the question, do you think that God's doing this to me because I'm being punished? Because of I'm like, well I can tell you this, no.
Host Fr John Gribowich:You know, but I mean like, but like, you know, saying that and then believing that, you know, are are two different things. I mean, how how have you personally been able to believe in an all good God all the time, especially in the midst of so many challenges, and especially challenges that happen at the hands of of those who are supposedly be talking about this all good God, you know, people in the church who represent the church. What's that what's that look like?
Guest Paul Fahey:It's like, it's it's it's only been grace. And I mean that in the sense of, like, where one day it was a retreat. It was, like, five five years ago, six years ago. I went in because of a whole bunch of circumstances over the past two years, not trusting God at all. Mhmm.
Guest Paul Fahey:I'm on this retreat, the the guy at front's talking, and I'm ignoring what he's saying, and I'm talking with the Lord. And I say to him, I don't trust you. And in my heart, God says to me, I I know. And in my heart, I say to him right back, that doesn't help me one bit. And then he says to me, you can give your lack of trust of me to me.
Guest Paul Fahey:And I'm like, I don't know what that means. And in my heart, I fumble through some sort of prayer that was like it was just that. Lord, I give my lack of trust of you to you. And I left that retreat actually believing that God was good. Like, there wasn't a formula, there wasn't like, it was it was grace.
Guest Paul Fahey:And that is tested, that is strained, that is there's been real ache, but there's also been a real security. Yeah. I think of, like, hope. The a symbol of hope is an anchor. Like, there's a sense of, like, a solidness in that.
Guest Paul Fahey:More recently, few months ago, I read the book On Job by the theologian Gustavo Gutierrez. Mhmm. Has a really, really excellent book. And he talks about precisely just precisely that question of God wants to deconstruct our view of a transactional faith. He wants us to rest on the belief that his the word that Gutierrez uses is gratuitous, God's gratuitous love.
Guest Paul Fahey:Mhmm. And if I believe that, what does that mean for my own understanding of my own experience of suffering? And what does that mean for my understanding of other people's experiences of suffering? I found that book to be compelling and convicting. So, yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:Grace, not without wrestling, not without trial, but there's a security there that the Lord has given me. Yeah.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Well, it's really beautiful, Paul, and really a great way to kinda enter a little time here together. Always such a great joy talking with you. How about you just like tell us about some of the things that you're working on right now, or ways for people to kinda be more in touch with you, and the good work that you're doing?
Guest Paul Fahey:Yeah. So so my website is catholicthirdspace.com. There you can find the my podcast, the Third Space podcast. That's a sub stack. You can sign up for my newsletter, and every so often I write different reflections on things.
Guest Paul Fahey:I also offer I'm taking a breakthrough this summer, but I offer live workshops about spiritual abuse in the Catholic church. That'll be, yeah, those would be starting up again in the fall and into the winter.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Highly recommend joining that workshop. I was very happy to be on that with you, I guess it was about a year ago now. So Yeah. Very, very Yeah. Very helpful to hear other people's stories.
Guest Paul Fahey:The the conversations from those have been incredible. Yeah. And then I'm in the midst of creating both yeah. More content, some video courses, and things like that around the same topic. But, yeah.
Guest Paul Fahey:All of my work at this point can be found at catholicthirdspace.com. That's awesome, Paul.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Well, I hope that you have a great summer. I hope that we connect sometime soon. One of these days, I hope that I meet you in person. Until then, keep up the good work and keep on being attentive to your heart and where the Lord is taking you today.
Guest Paul Fahey:Awesome. Father John, thanks so much.
Host Fr John Gribowich:Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Intentive Heart podcast. We hope that you were able to find it helpful in your spiritual journey and practice. This podcast is produced in collaboration with Sunday to Sunday productions and the Witness Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please subscribe and share it with friends.
Jesse Manibusan:There is a season of gladness. Hold on to love when pain and confusion seem endless, hold on to love. We cultivate healing through kindness. Hold on to
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