God's Healing Love with Guest Ryan Pemberton
Welcome to the Attentive Heart podcast where we explore how an integration of mind, body, and spirit make us whole and enable us to become more compassionate to ourselves and to others. I'm your host John Grubwich and today my guest is Ryan. So, Ryan, how about
Ryan Pemberton:you tell us a little
Fr John Gribowich:bit about your background and what occupies most of your time these days?
Ryan Pemberton:Sure. Yeah. Hi, John. Great to be with you. Great to be here for the Attentive Art podcast.
Ryan Pemberton:Longtime listener,
Fr John Gribowich:first time caller. Wow. Okay. Alright. I like I like talking to the fans.
Fr John Gribowich:Great.
Ryan Pemberton:No. It's a joy to to join you. Certainly. So I'm calling in from, Seattle, a sunny spring day in Seattle. So considering that a a win so far.
Fr John Gribowich:It's great.
Ryan Pemberton:Yeah. Ryan Pemberton, originally from the Pacific Northwest. So, just five years ago during the whole COVID pandemic, moved back after living away for for ten years. So it's been a it's been a journey. It's been a journey of, you know, leaving and and returning for me.
Ryan Pemberton:So for for me, a little bit of background. Grew up in the Pacific Northwest in this very lush area that I'm I'm happy to call home once again with with, you know, one of the few places in the world where you can simultaneously see the snow capped mountains and the ocean at the same time. It's just does something really special to my heart, to my mind. You know, when I was living away, every time I would fly in and see that, it was just this sense of, you know, peace and coming home and being rooted. So that's the sort of topography.
Ryan Pemberton:That's landscape that shaped me. Worked in communications for my career, so largely public relations, a lot of writing, speaking on behalf of my clients. Really enjoyed the wide variety of of work that that gave me to do early on in my career. But fairly early, a few years into my my career, I I felt like something essential was missing for me in terms of engaging my faith in that communications work. And so I ended up returning to school to study theology.
Ryan Pemberton:That sent me on a journey to Oxford, England. I earned a degree there in theology and then moved to Durham, North Carolina and continued to study theology at Duke Divinity School. And then after that, I landed in my first full time ministry position in Berkeley, California serving as minister for university engagement, which is where we met. Exactly. Many lunches and and conversations there.
Ryan Pemberton:And and what does it mean to be working at the intersection of the church and the academy conversations that really, you know, sparked both of our imaginations. So that was that was work that I did for for five years. Really life giving, stimulating, meaningful work. Also, some of the most challenging work I've ever done, you know, working in this hypercompetitive, hyper isolating context, and encouraging the students I was working with to approach their work in in a more, I would say, connected and connective way rather than the sort of atomization of of individualism that can happen there and sort of hyper achievement orientation. There there's more to life to to put it short.
Ryan Pemberton:You know? And so that's really a lot of what I was focusing on. I was blessed with the opportunity to be leading a program that was funded by the Lilly Grant to explore vocation. And so I was really encouraging students to think about vocation around the self and vocation around the world. So what are the gifts that God has given me to steward, and what are the unique needs or or wounds in the world that compel me, you know, and and the full spectrum of those needs, what are the ones that really tug at my heart, and how do the intersection of those gifts and those needs give me a better understanding of where God might be calling me to in the world.
Ryan Pemberton:And and so that was work I was really pleased to do. Today, I do a a wide variety of things, one of which is helping leaders become better communicators. And that involves everything from, you know, public presentations to just being better listeners, to paying attention to others Yeah. So that way they can be responsive, supportive. It's not just about what we say.
Ryan Pemberton:It's it's also about how we listen and and receive others. So that's a little bit of of the work that I have done and and that I continue to do.
Fr John Gribowich:Well, there's so much to unpack, and you've said so many of the words that I completely resonate with, especially vocation, listening, being attentive. These are all like things that just are so essential in so many different ways for our time, specifically when we have so many things to listen to or so many noises to contend with. How do we proactively do those things? So let's let's just kind of drill down there first a little bit. I I'm curious more about your faith journey, first off.
Fr John Gribowich:Like, what what what really brought you to a place where you felt like, you know, I want to go deeper in my relationship with God by actually studying theology. And you studied at some really remarkable places. And I'm sure those were very formative things for you. And how did that, what did that journey into going into that type of depth look like? What propelled you to do that?
Fr John Gribowich:And then also Mhmm. How did you discern from there that you wanted to work with young people in their journey? Was there some type of connection to that with your own experience?
Ryan Pemberton:Sure. Yeah. Well, I'll I'll start at the beginning and and sort of walk through. Sure. So for me, I grew up in a sort of multi faith family where my father is Catholic, and my my mother is Protestant.
Ryan Pemberton:And so pretty early on, I I had this sort of, you know, diverse milieu of spirituality and religion. You know? My parents separated when I was young, so I was raised mostly by my mom in a sort of variety of Protestant church communities. But when I whenever I spent time with my my father, we would attend mass together. And and so pretty early on, that was just the the experience for me that was that was baked in.
Fr John Gribowich:It is.
Ryan Pemberton:But, you know, I think we all have these moments where, not to use tired language, but our faith becomes our own. You know? There's some sort of inciting moment where we realize, oh, I'm I I have an opportunity either to step in or to step out. And for me, that experience happened pretty early on in in high school. My my family and especially my mother had a a very difficult experience, a rather traumatic event.
Ryan Pemberton:Then she returned home. I remember this very vividly when I was a freshman in high school and just said, you know, I I can't believe anymore in God given the the fact that this happened. And I don't need to go into the details, but just to say it was enough that she said in this moment, I'm I'm no longer able to believe in good and loving God. And and I remember feeling simultaneously this this deep empathy with my mom. I could see that she was struggling, but I also remember thinking, well, either God is God regardless of circumstances or or God is not God.
Ryan Pemberton:Can't it can't be conditional in that way. And and, really, it was an opportunity for me to say, no. I I do believe in God and and who I have been taught God is. And so I continued to go to church, but at that point, I was going on my own. I was getting rides from extended family members or friends until I could drive myself.
Ryan Pemberton:And so, you know, fairly early on in high school, my faith just became more important to me because now I was choosing it.
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:It was in college that I was introduced to the the first time to the the writings of CS Lewis, and he really was a more thoughtful author from a Christian worldview or perspective than I had ever read before. And, you know, mere Christianity, as it has been for so many people, really was a baptism of my intellect, of my mind, you know, again, in a way that I just not encountered. And that sort of set me down this path of exploring other, I would say, more maybe more thoughtful writers than I had been introduced to before. And when I was working in communications, I was doing a lot of storytelling work. Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:How do I help my clients tell their story? But I realized I I wanted to help tell this story in a meaningful and in a thoughtful and in an intellectually rigorous way. And and that ultimately is is what led me to apply to theological programs. And and given the influence of CS Lewis on my own vocational experience, Oxford really was at the top of the list for me. I do remember arriving though, and and a a dear friend of mine, Linden, actually said, you know, Lewis no longer teaches here.
Ryan Pemberton:Right? Of course, that was no surprise to me. Perhaps it was to other Americans visiting Oxford.
Fr John Gribowich:He might be teaching there in a different way now. But yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:His his legacy looms large.
Fr John Gribowich:Right. Right. Right.
Ryan Pemberton:And there's still so many people who preach and teach in Oxford, you know, who have been influenced by Lewis.
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. Let's talk just a little bit about that because Mere Christianity clearly was a very influential book for me as well. And then in my early years of teaching high school, I remember using that book with juniors and they really took a liking to it as well. Even though, you know, maybe his language is a little bit archaic for our time in some ways. But like, what was it about Lewis that got you more, let's just say even maybe, what would you even say, even more convinced of of the reality of God?
Fr John Gribowich:Or how would you Yes. How would you at it? Because I know that he was someone who's I guess, Mere Christianity is is really a book of what we would call, like, apologetics nowadays, it seems.
Ryan Pemberton:It it is. So It is. And, yeah, at that time, I didn't have any framework or language
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:For the work of apologetics. Mhmm. And I think probably that was helpful for me. My barriers were were a bit lower in that sense. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:I'm I'm just reading an author in in in this in this way. What is it that appealed to me? I think there were a few things. One, I found myself trusting this voice, which I I find to be really interesting as a reader. There are some voices we trust more than others.
Ryan Pemberton:Some we don't trust at all, and and we can't always say what it is about that. I think there was this sense of intellectual humility, though, that I found in Lewis, and I appreciate it. One example is, you know, he would often get to the the end of maybe a metaphor that he found helpful, but he would sort of say, but that's helpful for me. If it's not helpful for you, throw it out. Right.
Ryan Pemberton:And I I love that approach of saying, if this works for you, great. If not, no harm, no foul. You know? Let's keep going as it were. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:And so that sort of conversational tone and I would say that maybe that generous posture of try try this on. Maybe it'll work. Maybe it won't. That voice I trusted and that approach, I really appreciated. And then again, I just I think there were some you know?
Ryan Pemberton:So I think arguments is probably too strong, but maybe something like approaches
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:Were really helpful for me. You know? I think a lot of folks who know mere Christianity know the the trilemma, and and that and that was just a really helpful way of of looking at the world. The what is it? The the mad, bad, or god argument.
Ryan Pemberton:Right. Right. He doesn't seem to be out of his mind even though certainly those were some suggestions lobbed his way. It doesn't he certainly doesn't seem to be evil. Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:Well and maybe we need to take it more seriously that truly this was God in flesh. And that was an, you know, an eye opening moment to me, not because I hadn't considered it before, not because I didn't believe it, but it'll it'll it deepened that belief, I would say, to the point of conviction as you mentioned before. But I do think it was the sort of pairing of imaginative, you know, the the metaphors, the analogy, with the reasoned approach that, as it did for so many others, it it really resonated deeply with all of me, not just my mind, but my heart as well.
Fr John Gribowich:Right. Right. I've I've often heard it, you know, referred to as lunatic, liar, lord. Right? Yeah.
Fr John Gribowich:And I remember for myself too, it was like, well, jeez. This comes this get this arrives at a place where, you know, crisis everything or nothing at this point. Mhmm. Right? You can't parcel it out very easily and say, well, certain things you can take as being helpful, other things you have to let go.
Fr John Gribowich:I mean, you could do that with any other person, but not with the type of claims that Right. Jesus puts out. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:Right.
Fr John Gribowich:It's like you're all in or you're not. But if you're all in, it's very liberating because then you can start to see how everything becomes interconnected. It's it's actually the antithesis of becoming tribal. It's actually becoming more expansive. At least that's been my journey.
Ryan Pemberton:I agree with you. I I agree. Absolutely. And and I think so many of his approaches or his anecdotes do just that. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:They they name these what we might call universal experiences. And of course, have done a lot of work to say, well, this example is culturally influenced this way or that way. But in in so many of those cases, just say, yes. This is true of human experience, not just my experience. And that does connect me to something bigger.
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. And and I think and this is all, you know, under the under the I wouldn't say guys, that might not be the right word, but it's all with the understanding that what's happening in the context of what Lewis is presenting is a world war. Right? I mean, like, he's doing these radio broadcasts, became mere Christianity Mhmm. Literally while, like, bomb while London's being bombed.
Fr John Gribowich:I mean, like and and so, like, it's not like, there there was a lot at stake here. Meaning that, you know, we either have to understand what suffering is about and why evil exists and how Jesus relates to all those things and is right in the midst of all those things. Mhmm. You know? Mhmm.
Fr John Gribowich:Or or we, you know, have no way forward ultimately. Yeah. I mean, and I think that that that is the maybe the consistent thing with what Lewis presents and how it relates to our modern time that we're in, our contemporary situation that we find ourselves in. Like, we may not be experiencing the bombing of London London, but we have enough things in our life that we realize feel like the weight of the world on us. Yes.
Fr John Gribowich:The the grave insecurity of where things are going, and just not knowing ultimately where things are really leading to, or how life is gonna work out. And so Lewis is not just sitting back in a comfortable place just kind of doing musings on No. The Bible and who Jesus is. It's like, you know, if there's right and wrong in the world, so much so that people go to war over it, you know, to try to assert right or wrong, then, like, how does Jesus fit into the into this whole ongoing conflict that we seem to be in the midst of. Right?
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm. Mhmm. So, let let's let's just kind of use that maybe as a as a play to kind of continue to go with this. So we all know our lives are complex, and you've given us a really good insight on the complexities of your own experience growing up, you know, with your parents divorced Mhmm. With your mom having a faith crisis of sorts.
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm. What's that been like for you personally? I mean, even as you were going deepening in your awareness of learning about who Jesus is and forming yourself in the mind of him, was that enough? Or were there still things that kind of really challenged all of that deep, great learning that you had at Oxford and at Duke Mhmm. Mhmm.
Fr John Gribowich:And things like that. I mean, is it enough just to have head knowledge? That's basically the question. Because so many people, especially in the Western world, will say, that is where all the activity happens, in our head. Mhmm.
Fr John Gribowich:And the more convinced we are of strong arguments, the more convinced we are of just how all the stuff just makes logical sense, that inspires us and propels us to believe, case closed, life is now gonna be perfect because we know that Jesus is true. The story of Jesus is true. Yeah. How how does that connect to you or like Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:Well, I I think that has been the, you know, the post enlightenment model for us.
Fr John Gribowich:Right? Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:We are, as the philosopher James K. Smith puts it, brains on sticks. Right? Mhmm. And that is just a it is an unfortunately myopic understanding of the human person.
Ryan Pemberton:Right? We are enfleshed souls, and so much of our understanding happens not just in our minds, but in our bodies through what we feel,
Fr John Gribowich:through what
Ryan Pemberton:we experience. Mhmm. And, you know, the those moments, those experiences that you named in my own life, growing up in a family of divorce, having a parent go through a a faith crisis, and many others, these are moments that they don't just, you know, give us new ideas. They change our bodies. You know?
Ryan Pemberton:Those are experiences that stay with us for the rest of our our lives, and anything that makes sense to our heads has to make sense to our hearts Mhmm. To the rest of our body. Right? And and so I think, you know, coming out of grad school with a couple of, you know, degrees in theology, the temptation certainly was to move toward a more and more intellectual way of being in the world. But the further out I got from those studies, the more life I shared with university students, with loved ones, the more I realized I'm looking for somatic wisdom now.
Ryan Pemberton:I'm looking to I'm looking for those people who have been through it Yeah. And who still say Jesus is Lord. Whatever else is true, Jesus is Lord. And though that's the sort of wisdom I feel like in most recent years, that's the kind of wisdom I'm after now. And I don't mean to set up a binary
Fr John Gribowich:Right.
Ryan Pemberton:Either in a sort of intellectual reason to believe or just a sort of a heart that trusts this voice and wants to follow this voice and stewards one one's life in response to this voice, but it has to be a holistic picture. And I think, you know, the first probably, oh, I don't know, twenty five, thirty years of my life were geared more toward the intellect. Those were the area of my giftings. That's how I navigated the world. But more and more lately, I'm I'm learning, no.
Ryan Pemberton:Those those life experiences that turn one head over heels, those somehow need to be incorporated into this vision of the gospel as it were. And, you know, the the experiences you named, and again, more more have happened in addition to that. That deepens our sense of empathy and understanding and human connection. And the more I have those experiences, which tempt me to say this alienates you from the rest of humanity, the more I'm realizing, no. No.
Ryan Pemberton:No. Those are the experiences that connect us to one another. Yes. If we pay attention, if we take them seriously and take our neighbors seriously, right, I I think the temptation can be to say, well, I don't wanna think or talk about my family's divorce because it hurts too much. But if we take it seriously, then I can take my neighbor's experience, alienating experience seriously, and then I can realize, oh, you too.
Ryan Pemberton:I'm not the only one. Right? And God speaks through those moments to create these beautiful divine encounters. But that only that only can happen when when we actually pay attention to those those wounds, think, and integrate them into a a fuller, richer understanding of our encounters with this god who who meets us in those lived experiences.
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Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. Mean, it's just spoken so well. I mean, that that is the attentive heart right there in a nutshell. I mean, how much are we aware of common humanity? And common humanity is completely one and the same with common suffering.
Fr John Gribowich:Everyone is is carrying some type of cross so to speak. And everyone is just, if anything, subject to a world of of profound brokenness and wounds and hurts. And that's what I was saying about the C. S. Lewis thing, it's like everyone was dealing with just the world war.
Fr John Gribowich:Mean like Yes. And there is a war that's happening, so to speak, within ourselves, but it's not like, think as it's often looked upon as being some type of spiritual warfare, that we hear that term
Ryan Pemberton:float around.
Fr John Gribowich:I feel like the war is a little bit more between what has been traditionally known as the false self and and the true self. Yeah. And I remember early on when you and I were talking, we we had a Yes. A love for for Thomas Merton who would use that terminology a lot. And, you know, I think that that is a great way to look at how when we start to identify with our wounds in a way that propels us to maybe make excuses for them or fall into victim mentality or to somehow even just like belittle them or somehow just not even pay attention to them.
Fr John Gribowich:All those things kind of cloud up what the true self could be, which is to realize that our wounds are not in any way shape or form the the final points of our of who we are, but maybe are just a way to usher in the love of God in our life that makes the true self what it is. I mean, you said that you seek people out who've lived this, who've gone through this, who've who've have a way to be able to know that even despite all the stuff that they were able to just take upon themselves as being so, let's just say, ugly that yet they still believed that there was a loving God in the midst of all that. Like, do you remember any of those particular encounters or any of those particular moments where, well, because this person went through this, I know there is there's hope for me, so to speak. Mhmm. Or that or that's far more compelling.
Fr John Gribowich:You know? Sure.
Ryan Pemberton:Yeah. Certainly. I can I can think of at least a couple right off the top of my head? You know, you mentioned that we connected over the work of Thomas Merton. Think Henry Nouwen is also a frequent interlocutor
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:With his compensations. And I would say in the last five years, I've read and reread his book. I'm looking at it on my bookshelf right now, the inner voice of love, probably two or three times. And I think that is one of, you know, his most poignant works where he is really being in his own journal, at least initially, candidly honest about his own wounds, his own struggles, his own self defeating thoughts. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:And it's only working through those as honestly as he can that he can once again, you know, hear that to to quote him, that inner voice of love, to trust his own belovedness, to the point where his, you know, dear friends encourage him, you have to publish this because other people need access to this important, you know, essential work that that you've done of paying attention to those wounds and coming out on the other side
Fr John Gribowich:Right.
Ryan Pemberton:With a with a thicker with a more maybe what we might call a more muscular faith as a as a result of it. You know? So Henry Nouwen certainly has been a really helpful and trusted voice. Clearly, he was an intellectual. He was so gifted, you know, intellectually and, you know, privileged in terms of his education and articulate, but he's also someone who felt deeply.
Fr John Gribowich:Yes, sir.
Ryan Pemberton:And he paid attention to his life experiences and his emotions. You know, one of the other interlocutors for me in that vein who I'm I'm thrilled to have recently discovered that they were friends is Fred Rogers. Yeah. Miss Rogers' neighborhood. These two exchange letters with one another.
Fr John Gribowich:Amazing. Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:And to know that just again brings so so much, you know, deeper appreciation for for both of their lives, to me at least. Because Fred Rogers, again, was was someone who was an ordained Presbyterian pastor
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:Ordained to the ministry of media and specifically television media at a time when that was really pioneering, but also someone who helped others pay attention to their own lives, to their own emotions. And, you know, he's he he has this great line. He's quoting a child development psychologist, but he says if it's mentionable, it's manageable. And it's just that sense of, hey. If we can actually be honest with our with our human experiences, then we can get through them.
Ryan Pemberton:But if we can't even talk about it, there's no way. Right? There's no way. They were they will overwhelm us unless we can show one another. We can talk about this.
Ryan Pemberton:Yeah. Fred Rogers, I think, is someone who had a a deep sort of somatic wisdom and and lived in a very generous way. And then on a more personal level, I'll I'll mention my friend Bernadette. Bernadette is someone who volunteers at a community kitchen here in Seattle. That's how we first got connected, a community kitchen called Edible Hope.
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:It is a ministry partner of Saint Luke's Episcopal Church in Ballard Ballard community of Seattle. It's been going on for about thirty years. It's been feeding its food insecure neighbors five days a week, Monday through Friday. And the the numbers of that are increasing month after month. I'm now not just a volunteer there, but I'm I'm on their board.
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:And Tuesday nights for the last four years, Bernadette and I have, you know, cut up herbs, marinated chicken, prepared meals, and that really has become a deeply meaningful liturgy for me in my week. Tuesday nights preparing meals for our neighbors with my friend Bernadette. Yeah. Bernadette's originally from Guyana, lived in New York for several decades before moving out to the Pacific Northwest, and she has gone through her own profound challenges, unlike my own.
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:But the first thing you notice, anyone will notice about Bernadette, is her robust sense of humor. She has one of the deepest, you know, most contagious laughs of anyone I know. And, again, it's not coming from a pain free life. It's coming from someone who has really gone through it
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm. And
Ryan Pemberton:who has come out on the other side, as it were, with, I think, a a richer faith in Jesus and God's work among us, and I would say a richer sense of humor and a contagious joy that I look forward to being around every week.
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. Isn't it always amazing how the response to pain can often be something like humor? Mhmm. It really shows some type of putting in perspective or looking at something with a wider lens than than getting so focused on just really the hurt that that is very real. Right?
Fr John Gribowich:I mean Yes. I I don't think I don't think people are like kinda glossing over hurt when they do that. Almost as if they are able to somehow put it in a a type of perspective that allows them to see maybe where the healing is happening while the hurt is is happening too. To be able to Yeah. I've I've often used this example with people that, you know, there's been times in my life both as a priest and before being a priest where I was called to be at the bedside of with a family whose child was was very ill, and it was in the context of like a children's hospital.
Fr John Gribowich:Right? Like and you're just kind of looking at this like there's just you can't make any sense of a child suffering No. So tremendously. There's there's no way to kinda ever say that this is justifiable or something like that. Right?
Fr John Gribowich:And so it's the the the the most injust expression of pain in our mists. But yet at the same time, you're like looking around, you're like, my gosh, this whole infrastructure that's been built to support someone in this moment, from this hospital and all the technology and all the resources that go into this, to every single nurse and assistant and doctor. And you're like, wow, the the the depth of love that's being poured out at this moment Mhmm. Is undeniable. It's like a way that you're like, you can't just kind of then focus on the pain because the love is too great to be able to ignore.
Fr John Gribowich:Right? And I feel like there's something, there's a dynamic like that always happening in our lives at any moment in time. And maybe your friend Bernadette is able to be aware of that, attentive to that so to speak. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:I'm I'm fascinated by that relationship that you named between pain and and humor and certainly it makes me wanna think about it more, not as a way of avoiding or denying or downplaying the pain, but as a way of almost of taking it more seriously, but seeing through it. Right? Not getting stuck in it. I was just looking up the name of a a book that I found really helpful. Thomas Lynch's book, The Undertaking, if you if you're not familiar.
Fr John Gribowich:I've heard of it. I've not read it, though.
Ryan Pemberton:Yeah. Brilliant book. He is an he is an undertaker
Fr John Gribowich:of a
Ryan Pemberton:multigeneration funeral family owned funeral home, but also just has this piercing sense of humor. And it was it was a beautiful account of, you know, a universal experience that was just shot through with with, yeah, a real a real I would say this vitality of life.
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm. You know?
Ryan Pemberton:When maybe we would expect the opposite. It's overly somber. No. No. Not the case at all.
Ryan Pemberton:It's it's the opposite. But but it's only because he spent so much time with it, paying careful attention, taking it seriously.
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some other things that that you you were talking about in passing, just I just wanted to kinda latch onto again. You know, I I mentioned even at the beginning of the podcast as the introduction, like, this whole integration of mind, body, spirit, and the somatic type of way to understand the lived experience in God.
Fr John Gribowich:What does that does that meant to you? And I know it's on my mind because I read a really great book recently by my friend, Cyprian Consiglio, who's a commodities monk. Currently works doing inter religious dialogue, monastic inter religious dialogue. He's based in Rome. And he basically makes the the the asserts that, you know, if we're more respectful at first with our body, it it is a way for us to actually go into a deeper sense of prayer.
Fr John Gribowich:But also, more importantly, to just embrace the incarnational reality that we are. He's pulling it from different religious traditions as well, to show that we lots of ways we're all kind of getting at this from a different angle. But Mhmm. What has that meant for you? The more in touch you are, say, with your body's emotions and feelings, which even those things we can start to over intellectualize.
Fr John Gribowich:But, like, for example, and I I maybe this is this is working in a very personal way for me right now, because I know I've been feeling a little bit of anxiety and stress Mhmm. With with very close friends of mine right now, and I'm feeling their And it's it's a physical type of thing. It's like you feel like, oh, it feels very heavy, like there's something on you. Have you had an experience with that? Or, like, what does that look like for you?
Fr John Gribowich:Because I think that since you mentioned it, it seems to me that you know exactly what that means, if that makes sense. Mhmm. You know, I mean, what what would you say to something like that about that kind of awareness of who God is actually physically in our bodies? Mhmm. Know?
Ryan Pemberton:Mhmm. Yeah. And love this this line or this insight that you offered from your friend, Sabrina Consiglio. Did I get that? Yeah.
Fr John Gribowich:That's right. Yes, Sabrina. Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:More more respect for our bodies leads to a deeper sense of prayer. I love that, and I and I think there's so much wisdom there. I would say I am a beginner here. I'm only just starting to pay attention to my body because that's not how you know, that's the culture I was raised in didn't encourage me to pay attention to my body. I I think I've I've had to learn that from from other voices.
Ryan Pemberton:I I remember visiting some some dear friends in Helsinki years ago now. And we we had a few days together, and our and our time together was just packed with, you know, seeing local sites, traveling, rich conversations. And in our last afternoon together, I was so tired that that my friends, our our host, said, you know, Ryan, you look pretty tired. Why don't you go lay down for a nap? And we're just a couple hours away from, you know, drive driving me to the airport so I can return home.
Ryan Pemberton:And I remember thinking, well, that seems foolish. That seems like a waste of our time. I wanna soak up every ounce of this time. And and my friend, Saul, said, Ryan, you should pay attention to your body.
Fr John Gribowich:If
Ryan Pemberton:your body is telling you you're tired, why don't you go lay down? And it just was like this, you know, light bulb that went off. Pay attention to my body. That's something that anyone has ever told me. In fact, I I think I've probably been told the opposite.
Ryan Pemberton:Work through your pain.
Fr John Gribowich:I know. I know. I know.
Ryan Pemberton:That's what our culture has Right. Not only told me, but rewarded me for.
Fr John Gribowich:Yes. Yes. Yeah. No. I mean, that that's speaking loud and clear to me right now because, you know, as a teacher during the academic year, clearly, you're busy Pretty.
Fr John Gribowich:With all the responsibilities. The summer is equally can be equally problematic though, because now it's like all this kind of like unassigned time that you feel like, well, has to be filled up with all these meaningful things. But, yeah, I mean, that whole listening to your body is so incredibly important because it just like, to not get over theological, but it is a way to honor the incarnational reality that you are. I mean, it's so interesting that that a religion like Christianity, which talks about God becoming a human, and that we feed upon his body when we talk about the body of Christ, you know, in the sacrament of communion. It doesn't matter the theology behind it, what we're saying.
Fr John Gribowich:We're talking in a very tangible way of, like, partaking in in this very physical thing. You know, it's just amazing how Christians seem to be the the least concerned about the body's relationship to prayer. Mhmm. While maybe people from the East seem to have a far greater awareness of that and and put a far greater emphasis on that. And it's like, maybe we gotta like really wake up here because the the amount of anxiety and stress that I think happens at the cost of our bodies breaking down because we're kind of not paying attention to them.
Fr John Gribowich:It it it's really showing how we're lacking an integration here that could allow us to be fully, not just human, but fully God as well. I mean, to be that presence of God in the world, showing up as our best selves. And it seems to me that it has to start with being very attentive to what the body needs, from diet to exercise to rest. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:Absolutely. All those things and more, I think. Yeah. Listening, paying attention to our body. Another book that comes to mind that I've been thinking of for some time and finally just cracking open is Kusuke Koyama's book, The Three Mile an Hour God.
Fr John Gribowich:Oh, wow. Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:So I don't think it's just Christians who have this problem. I think it is a particular brand or geographic slice of Christianity that hasn't really taken the body seriously. Or Kosuke Koyama is a Japanese, American theologian who talks about how, you know, if God became flesh and as a human being moved at three miles an hour, then that means that three miles an hour, which is the average human walk speed, three miles an hour is the speed at which love moves.
Fr John Gribowich:And so
Ryan Pemberton:what does it mean for us to slow down so we might encounter love? How do we need to slow down to pay attention so that when we encounter that love of God in humanity, we're not moving so fast that we miss it. That has been a helpful image for me. It's been a helpful read for me. So, you know, one of the things I'll say is because I do spend so much time in my mind, in my hedge Oh, yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:By nature of my work, by nature of my upbringing, by nature of just my own disposition
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:I find that practices that get me in my body are really helpful. You know? Running is a really helpful practice
Fr John Gribowich:for me Yes.
Ryan Pemberton:Because it forces me to pay attention to my body, and I'll find that, you know, I I did used to be a runner, but in recent years, it's been a really I I I potentially, hyperbole here, but it's been a really lifesaving practice
Fr John Gribowich:Yes.
Ryan Pemberton:By getting me out of really harmful thought processes and into my body and feeling, you know, better, more at peace afterwards. It's not just about staying fit physically. It's about, you know, mentally, holistically, just being grounded, being rooted, reconnecting with God.
Jesse Manibusan:Yes.
Ryan Pemberton:We're being reminded of what is true. Yes. But it requires me moving, getting out. You know? Similarly, just taking a break midday, getting up from my desk, even just going for a short ten minute walk in my neighborhood.
Ryan Pemberton:Oh, my my hope for the world expands exponentially. It sounds silly or trite, but it it's true. My my hope expands exponentially. Just getting outside, going for a walk. Similarly, when I move spots in the morning, when I sit in my which I'm looking at right now, my my same spot I sit every morning for my morning prayer, I'm more attentive to my body there Cause that's not my workspace, that is my prayer chair.
Ryan Pemberton:Right. So these seemingly little physical practices can actually have a really big impact and help us, as you said, to be more attentive, to have a deeper sense of prayer.
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah, that's great, because I'm assuming that you have a type of job now where you probably don't have to leave your house at all, right? No, no. I can And a lot of us have that type of job now, and so it's requires even more of an extra effort because you can just get phones at the trap of just working twenty four seven essentially. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And not moving spaces. Right?
Ryan Pemberton:And again, when when that happens, I just I feel so down. I feel disconnected.
Fr John Gribowich:I feel
Ryan Pemberton:a bit like a zombie, you know, just sort of like mindlessly wandering through my day. But it's, you know, getting up, moving spaces. Maybe I'm going to go work in a in a public space at, you know, my local coffee shop. Right. Even just doing that can again revitalize me.
Ryan Pemberton:It's that sense of being connected with others, being in a different space, just the act of getting up and moving, walking to my neighborhood library, you know, being around others, checking out a couple of books, all all of these practices. I think COVID, as much as it took from us
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:Also gave us some important gifts, and I think it's important to pay attention to that. One of which is just realizing our need for connection Yes. And what happens to us when we are disconnected from one another. You know? And so just these little moments in my day where I can get out, where I can connect with others, it brings so much to my life.
Ryan Pemberton:And as as we're talking about here to my my sense of prayer, my prayers become more connected when I'm connected with others. They they don't become so self enclosed, right, in in really, I I think, despairing ways.
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. No. That's that's that's beautiful how you how you laid that all out. And right now, would you consider yourself a freelancing? Is is that what you are, or are you working primarily with any one organization?
Ryan Pemberton:Yeah. I'm I'm working with S and P Communications. Okay. They're headquartered in San Francisco, so I've been working with them for for four years now.
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:They help, you know, clients around the world. So I I do a bit of travel, but I as you said, most of it is just right here from the comforts of home.
Fr John Gribowich:And and how do you understand encounters within the context of working online so much? I mean, do you find those to be encounters as well? We can all say, oh, get out of the house to see someone at the coffee shop, at the library. Those are real human encounters. But how do you bring that when you work that muscle outside, How are you differently like, do you show up differently when you're online, on Zoom, or whatever it may be?
Ryan Pemberton:You know? Yeah. Well, I mean, this gets into really the some of the mechanics of of the work that I do and the work that I train others to do. Right? So so part of it is is paying attention to eye contact.
Ryan Pemberton:Right? Eye contact is such a meaningful mode of connection for us as as humans. I mean, think about the difference in an interaction where someone is greeting you with a handshake Mhmm. And making eye contact and maintaining eye contact with you versus greeting you with a handshake and staring at their shoes the whole time, or maybe even worse looking over your shoulder. Who else is here?
Ryan Pemberton:Right?
Fr John Gribowich:Oh, yes. Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:I mean, those are profoundly different experiences.
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:But the same thing can happen in this virtual space. Right? It feels very unnatural for me to be staring at a green dot on the top Yeah. Center of my screen. But for you, it feels Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:Like I'm having an eye to eye conversation. So that's what to do now.
Fr John Gribowich:When I'm
Ryan Pemberton:meeting in this virtual space, I put in that effort, that intentional effort
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah.
Ryan Pemberton:So that it feels like we're connecting.
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:Of course, there there are other things that I do. I lift up my my laptop. I put it on a couple of books so that way I'm not doing this. Right?
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. Right. Right. Right.
Ryan Pemberton:That still often happens.
Fr John Gribowich:Right. Right.
Ryan Pemberton:If we're not speaking at eye level, it's it's just awkward. Either I'm looking down at you or you're looking up my nose. So there are these little sort of mechanics that we can do when we're encountering one another virtually to make it feel more like we're connecting. And I think those are important things because, again, we need that human connection. Even in a virtual space, when we are moving more toward that, we we still long for those human connections.
Ryan Pemberton:So these little things, these little tips can actually really encourage more connection.
Fr John Gribowich:Right. Well, Ryan, this is such a fun conversation, and you gave so many amazing little practices that can help us to be able to be more connected with our body, those around us, be more attentive to ourselves, present to our surroundings, as I like to say, to make us more sacramental, more incarnational. But one the way I love to just kind
Ryan Pemberton:of
Fr John Gribowich:maybe end our time together is that I wanna talk about your relationship that you had with Mike Russo because Oh. Mike is the one who's making all this stuff possible for us. Right? I mean, he started Sunday to Sunday. I remember I I was able to, I think, connect you both.
Fr John Gribowich:You did.
Ryan Pemberton:That's right.
Fr John Gribowich:Thank you. So I was just curious if you can maybe talk a little bit about him because we are his legacy here in certain ways. I mean, we're what we're doing here is is a way to honor the the good work that he started with trying to really cultivate better preaching in the church. And to now realize that it's not about preaching from the pulpit as much as doing all those little things that you just said, that you are preaching if you're looking more at the green dot. That is a way to preach, believe it or not.
Fr John Gribowich:Right? Mhmm. So I I don't know. Any any Mike stories for us or any reflections?
Ryan Pemberton:Well, yeah. I would say that, you know, what you just named, it's it's a way of preaching. Yes. It's a way of loving our neighbor. And I think father Mike was someone who genuinely loved his neighbors, and I and I am fortunate to have considered myself in that good company thanks to your introduction.
Ryan Pemberton:Mhmm. In introduction. Mhmm. In just a couple of years of knowing him, father Mike, I felt, really knew me
Fr John Gribowich:Yes.
Ryan Pemberton:And valued me. Yes. We met, he would bring up things that we had talked about previously. He was showing me that he was paying attention. He was mindful of where I was, my hopes, my dreams, my concerns.
Ryan Pemberton:He would bring all of that up in conversation in a way that really made me feel seen and known and loved, not in a thin way, but in a in a thicker, robust way. He's also someone I would just say who had a certain vitality of life that when you experience it, you know it. Right?
Fr John Gribowich:You you
Ryan Pemberton:encounter these people and you think this this man is not just getting through life. He's really living in a in a in a deeper, thicker way. He's he was someone who lived in an embodied way. You know, I would often hear about his his swimming practices Right. Getting out to the pools.
Ryan Pemberton:Right? He loved to go swimming. This is some way I I don't think it was purely just about staying physically fit. I think it was something he loved. Also, had a great humor, often bringing laughter into our into our times together.
Ryan Pemberton:And and obviously, someone who deeply appreciated the craft of preaching, and that was certainly something that we connected on. Have you heard of this preacher?
Fr John Gribowich:Are you
Ryan Pemberton:reading this author? You know? And sharing those conversations, I always left those times together feeling like my life was fuller Mhmm. Just for connecting with Father Mike. So I continue to be grateful for him and and for the the legacy of his ministries.
Fr John Gribowich:No. That's that's great. It's it's might be a great way to end our time, but I also before we go too, I know that you mentioned to me offline that you were actually engaged in more formal preaching
Ryan Pemberton:Mhmm.
Fr John Gribowich:Opportunities these days. Maybe Yeah. Do you just wanna reflect a little bit about that? What's what's been offered to you? What what have you been doing in that regard?
Ryan Pemberton:Yeah. Well, it's it's a little bit there's some irony to that story because when I was working in university ministries in Berkeley at a Presbyterian church, I would often be asked, so are you pursuing ordination? And every time I would say, no. I I really enjoy the work I'm doing. I don't I don't think I need to be ordained, though.
Ryan Pemberton:And it's only since I've not been working in ministry that I've begun ordination, so I'm I'm a couple of years into my ordination process
Fr John Gribowich:That's great. At a
Ryan Pemberton:Presbyterian church.
Fr John Gribowich:That's great.
Ryan Pemberton:And really enjoying that. So I just wrapped up a pastoral ministry internship where I was at a church for three months and just preaching week in and week out and gaining that experience of what it what it entails to be rooted in a community, preaching through the lectionary with the news what it is, with human despair at times what it is, and asking how is God encountering us through the scriptures, through our shared experiences now. And and, you know, it just reminded me of how deeply rich these scriptures are for informing our understanding of who we are and how we are invited to live amidst these in many ways, they feel, you know, like, these universal timeless challenges. I I think it's so easy to think no one has ever been through what we've we're going through currently, and it doesn't take much effort to say, of course, that's not true. The human experience is long and rich, and when we pay attention to the scriptures and to one another, we we realize just how much opportunity there is for connection.
Ryan Pemberton:So I I I continue to preach even after my internship wrapped up. I've several preaching opportunities coming up here in Seattle that I'm really looking forward to. It enriches my life, and I find it to be, yeah, one of the most meaningful things I get to do.
Fr John Gribowich:Amazing. One last question. Where is your hope these days?
Ryan Pemberton:Oh, where is my hope? You know, I just finished reading Love's Braided Dance by Norman Wirsba, a theologian at Duke. And he's writing about hope. But he says, every time I'm asked that question, where are you finding hope? He says, wanna rephrase it and say, where are you doing hope?
Ryan Pemberton:And I love that rephrase. It it it invites us to move toward active hope rather, passive hope. For me, when I show up at Edible Hope Kitchen
Fr John Gribowich:on Tuesday nights Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:When I'm getting my hands on food that I know is going to help feed our neighbors
Fr John Gribowich:Mhmm.
Ryan Pemberton:I inevitably leave that time feeling more hopeful Mhmm. Than when we arrived.
Fr John Gribowich:That's amazing. Beautiful. Ryan, what a great time spending here with you. So thank you for this opportunity.
Ryan Pemberton:It's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much for inviting me, John.
Fr John Gribowich:Yeah. Hope to see you in the Bay Area sometime.
Ryan Pemberton:I would love that. I'll let you know the next time I'm back, we can share a Barney's burger.
Fr John Gribowich:I love it. Yeah. Let's make sure that Barney's supports the the Attendant of Heart podcast too with that little plug.
Ryan Pemberton:I'll I'll send them a note.
Fr John Gribowich:Okay. Thank you so much, Ryan.
Ryan Pemberton:Peace. It's really been my pleasure. Peace to you. Thanks.
Fr John Gribowich:Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Attentive Heart podcast. We hope that you were able to find it helpful in your spiritual journey and practice. This podcast is produced in collaboration with Sunday to Sunday productions and The Witness Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please
Jesse Manibusan:when pain and confusion seem endless. Hold on to love. We cultivate healing through kindness. Hold on to love. Hold on to love where hope is found.
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